10yo son accused of being transphobic, help me write to school

[flowery]

I am trying not to be too angry, but my 10yo came home yesterday saying I'd be pleased to know what he said about transgender at school. It was a discussion amongst his friends, not with the teacher present and not as part of a lesson, and he'd said it was not possible to change sex.

Apparently one of his friends said he was transphobic for saying so. He doesn't seem worried and doesn't want me to make a fuss, and it doesn't sound like it was said to him in a nasty way. But I'm not happy.

I've got no reason to think the school is teaching any gender woo stuff, I don't think they're particularly 'woke', but I want to check. I'm also not sure what to do about the accusation. I don't want my son to feel he can't express a view or say biological sex is real without someone else accusing him of any kind of 'phobia'.

He's not shy and is popular and quite a strong character, but that's not the point.

I have the new government guidance so I am planning to write to his teacher, probably in a 'not making a fuss don't want to get anyone into trouble' kind of way, just asking how they teach this subject and reiterating that I would like to be sure that it is clear to children that someone disagreeing with them isn't a phobia, that it is is not literally possible to change sex, and that differing opinions are perfectly fine.

I seem to remember someone somewhere linking to some kind of table done by the NHS where it says it's not possible to change biological sex. I can't find it, does anyone know what it was and perhaps have a link?

Plus any thoughts on how best to handle it would also be appreciated.

Gender is a nothing word. It is not clearly defined in the legislation and changing it does not make you the opposite sex in every single respect. Why is that?

In law, I should say. As a legal fiction. It doesn't make you the opposite sex in biological terms in any respect whatsoever.

Oh fgs, here is the dictionary definition as if you don't know already:

www.collinsdictionary.com/amp/english/gender

And here, gender reassignment, changing sex, is a protected characteristic:

www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2010/15/section/7?view=extent&timeline=false

Please don't pretend to be stupid.

And here, gender reassignment, changing sex, is a protected characteristic

you can't just throw in "changing sex" as if thats what gender reassignment means. It doesn't.
"Gender reassignment" means the process of making a person of one sex LOOK more like a person of the other sex. It does not mean changing sex, which is impossible.

@chickenyhead

The right to change gender is in the legislation as is the definition. You unfortunately don't get to choose which laws apply. Might be worth reading a bit more about the law.

Yes I get that, but what is "gender" in this context? Aside from a legal label, what has actually changed? Or is it literally just changing a label and nothing else?

You feel very strongly that in a conversation between 10 year olds "Using semantics by stating the fact that they cannot change biological sex, was a step beyond reasonable or necessary, unless qualified with, 'but you can change gender"."

So, how are you going to define "change gender" to a 10 year old in factual terms that make it clear and distinct that it's not a change to biological sex?

Gender reassignmentE+W+S
(1)A person has the protected characteristic of gender reassignment if the person is proposing to undergo, is undergoing or has undergone a process (or part of a process) for the purpose of reassigning the person's sex by changing physiological or other attributes of sex.

I don't need to define gender. This is a commonly known word and the legislation is there.

So if you deny the existence of gender aren't you just denying the existence of a protected characteristic? Does that not seem quite abusive?

Oh fgs, here is the dictionary definition as if you don't know already:

Which of those 5 definitions is the one you are using?

You seriously expect me to believe that as adults you genuinely do not know what gender is?

Why all of the hissy fits then, if it doesn't exist? Why is there legislation?

Or are you just going to keep on attaching those who don't agree with dogma.

@chickenyhead

Gender reassignmentE+W+S (1)A person has the protected characteristic of gender reassignment if the person is proposing to undergo, is undergoing or has undergone a process (or part of a process) for the purpose of reassigning the person's sex by changing physiological or other attributes of sex.

I don't need to define gender. This is a commonly known word and the legislation is there.

So if you deny the existence of gender aren't you just denying the existence of a protected characteristic? Does that not seem quite abusive?

I deny the existence of God. That doesn't make me abusive to those who believe in a deity.

Forcing me to believe in God, now that would be abusive.

"Gender" is indeed a commonly used word, with many different meanings. That why I want to know exactly which one you think is a factual statement to a 10 year old.

@chickenyhead

You seriously expect me to believe that as adults you genuinely do not know what gender is?

Why all of the hissy fits then, if it doesn't exist? Why is there legislation?

Or are you just going to keep on attaching those who don't agree with dogma.

"Why is there legislation?" is a very good question.

I assume you know the case for repealing the GRA based on the fact that now same sex marriages are legal there is no reason to change Legal sex?

There is a legal right to change gender. If you are interested in definitions then there are many many sources you can explore, from the legislation to the ONS, the WHO, gosh, lots.

The law applies in this country. It exists.

@Winesalot

There are several things which could be closer than you think. I agree anything like chromosone change or skeletal change is a long way in the future if even possible, but there's certainly interest in how stem cell treatments could be used in gender reassignment with trans men more likely to benefit based on the currently potentially available technology. It's also been shown that relatively simple gene editing techniques can have dramatic effects on sexual characteristics in animal experiments: www.theguardian.com/science/2018/jun/14/sex-change-mice-research-could-help-humans-say-scientists

So I don't think it would be correct to say these things aren't possible currently, they may not yet be safe enough to be ethical, and may not yet be developed enough to be used in humans but these fields of medicine are likely to prove pretty revolutionary in the life of the ten year old under discussion - who incidentally I hope is reading this thread and taking notes. If he's going to be gettng into these debates it's best he doesn't go in half-cocked.

Anyway my point really was whether humans can't change sex is opinion of fact. Certainly human's can't currently change sex seems fair enough although I don't think it would be unfair to say humans can change aspects of their sex, but perhaps you don't think these changes are enough to constitute an actual sex change. Which goes back to the question of what is enough? In the advent of stem cell grown genitals and internal organs, gene hacked hormone producing ovaries or testes, potential reproductive capability, then I think a lot of people would be of the opinion that reasonably constitues a sex change.

I think there comes a point where the idea there is some kind of womanhood, or manhood, that can never be attained no matter what physical changes take places starts to look a bit like the idea of an almost mystical essence. If someone looks like a woman, has the primary and secondary sexual characteristics of a woman, is able to sexually reproduce and gestate a child like a woman then I think most people would think that person is a woman, no matter what chromosones they might have or the shape of their skeleton. Which begs the question I asked earlier, at what point would changes like this become a change of sex? And isn't that a matter of opinion? (And of course one opinion would be never but an opinion is all that would be)

@FWRLurker

In any case, this intervention would be extremely expensive so we are back to our analysis above. Who pays? If society pays, what benefits are there and are they distributed fairly?

I'm not sure these interventions would be that expensive relative to other healthcare, there's no reason why once stem cell/genetic treatments become widely used they have to be expensive. Hopefully by then we'll have smashed the system of patenting that makes a lot of medical treatment so expensive.

Obviously there are ethical concerns concerning the safety primarily of individuals undergoing treatment, But these are not insurmountable, medicine does it all the time. Presuming these treatment can be developed to meet those standards then I'm not convinced the ethical dimension more broadly are so terrible. So a few people change sex, is that such a big problem? It could be revolutionary from a Feminist perspective. I don't think it's any accident that new form of technology inspired Feminism like Xenofeminism are revisting Shulasmith Firestone. The idea that reproductive labour (in the gestating a child sense not the Marxist sense) could be shared between those born male or female would have been very exciting to a lot of second wave rad fems. It's worth noting I think that originally sex class based Feminism was not about policing the bounderies of womanhood but about destroying the sex classes of women and men completely.

Full on nonsense back on line again.

It's worth noting I think.

The pomposity always sticks out a mile when lectures are delivered on feminism on FWR. You can see it from space.

There are several things which could be closer than you think. I agree anything like chromosone change or skeletal change is a long way in the future if even possible, but there's certainly interest in how stem cell treatments could be used in gender reassignment with trans men more likely to benefit based on the currently potentially available technology

But nobody's answered my question about why we should be doing this at all. What is the purpose of a 'sex change'? Why does anyone feel they need to change sex?

I can see how misogynistic societies could use this - instead of abortion or infanticide to rid themselves of those unwanted female children, they could just have female babies and then change their sex to male.

But nobody's answered my question about why we should be doing this at all. What is the purpose of a 'sex change'? Why does anyone feel they need to change sex?

Because some people feel it would make them a lot happier, isn't that enough?

Because some people feel it would make them a lot happier, isn't that enough?

Why would it make them happier?

@OldCrone because they feel as if they have been born into the wrong body. Their gender identity doesn’t match their physical body

Why do are some people attached to same sex? Why are some people asexual ? Why can’t you just let other people live the life they choose ?

[quote Emmie12345]@OldCrone because they feel as if they have been born into the wrong body. Their gender identity doesn’t match their physical body

Why do are some people attached to same sex? Why are some people asexual ? Why can’t you just let other people live the life they choose ?[/quote]
But gender identity is all about gender stereotypes. Why not let people be who they are without insisting that they should conform to gender stereotypes? Why should anyone need to change their body in order to conform to a stereotype?

But gender identity is all about gender stereotypes. Why not let people be who they are without insisting that they should conform to gender stereotypes? Why should anyone need to change their body in order to conform to a stereotype?

With respect @OldCrone it's none of your business what other adults choose to do with their bodies. You may say it's your business where those bodies go in terms of single sex spaces, fair enough, but that's where it ends. My body my choice. End of.

Why not let people be who they are without insisting that they should conform to gender stereotypes?

It's. Not. About. Gender. For. Most. Of. Us.

I would be much happier with a female body. I'd probably be rather butch. I wouldn't even care if you said I have to dress as a man, well I'd care a bit that you were telling me how to dress but it wouldn't bother me how I dressed. I would be comfortable in my body and that would be a good feeling I think.

I agree with you about adults jj. But people shouldn't be pushing these ideas on children, which is what this thread was originally about. All children need to know is that they can't change sex. When they become adults they can modify their bodies as they wish, if they have the financial means. In that respect this is no different from any other cosmetic surgery.

What I object to is people telling children that they have a 'gender identity' and/or that they can change sex.

Absolutely your body your choice . If you choose to spend your money seeking a body which is a facsimile of a female body good on you . However, you can't expect others to fund this unless it is treatment for some underlying physical or mental illness.

I wouldn't involve the school by writing in if it was just a conversion between kids.

If he's been reported then absolutely defend him.

Sorry I can see the conversation has moved on, didn't rtft just responding to OP

@flowery

I would be much happier with a female body.

You think you would be happier, but you can't possibly know that. I don't believe that anyone can know for certain how they would feel when they experience something they have never experienced before.