10yo son accused of being transphobic, help me write to school

[flowery]

I am trying not to be too angry, but my 10yo came home yesterday saying I'd be pleased to know what he said about transgender at school. It was a discussion amongst his friends, not with the teacher present and not as part of a lesson, and he'd said it was not possible to change sex.

Apparently one of his friends said he was transphobic for saying so. He doesn't seem worried and doesn't want me to make a fuss, and it doesn't sound like it was said to him in a nasty way. But I'm not happy.

I've got no reason to think the school is teaching any gender woo stuff, I don't think they're particularly 'woke', but I want to check. I'm also not sure what to do about the accusation. I don't want my son to feel he can't express a view or say biological sex is real without someone else accusing him of any kind of 'phobia'.

He's not shy and is popular and quite a strong character, but that's not the point.

I have the new government guidance so I am planning to write to his teacher, probably in a 'not making a fuss don't want to get anyone into trouble' kind of way, just asking how they teach this subject and reiterating that I would like to be sure that it is clear to children that someone disagreeing with them isn't a phobia, that it is is not literally possible to change sex, and that differing opinions are perfectly fine.

I seem to remember someone somewhere linking to some kind of table done by the NHS where it says it's not possible to change biological sex. I can't find it, does anyone know what it was and perhaps have a link?

Plus any thoughts on how best to handle it would also be appreciated.

What's going on with MN tonight, it's like a Jive Bunny record with a stutter lol
shows age
Not just this thread, seems to be all over the site

Thanks for your opinion smile duly noted

You're welcome you're welcome .

Don't write in. Schools are really struggling right now trying to just keep everyone safe, working in really difficult conditions and struggling to provide adequate staffing levels.
For example, in my school we get one 30 min break per day in which to go to the toilet, eat and set up for afternoon lessons. We are carrying out cleaning tasks throughout the day as well as trying to, you know, actually teach as well as supervising the pupils eating lunch.
So give them a break ffs

I think it's fitting that this argument is now being had by actual 10 year olds rather than adults who just behave like 10 year olds.

@334bu

" Yes, a fully transitioned trans women on hormones for a long time will have breast tissue, changed nipple structure, female type fat distribution such as a subcutaneous layer of fat, female body hair patterns, and a whole range of other more subtle pysical differences as well as genitalia which looks like a vagina. If you sent her back in time to before trans healthcare and her body was externally examined she would be declared a woman and that would have been considered a fact."

BBC News - Milk ducts: Image of female breast anatomy goes viral
www.bbc.co.uk/news/newsbeat-48051236

I am quite sure those cavemen might feel the difference.

I wouldn't be so sure

"The histologic effect of high levels of estrogen utilized for transition from male to female, unlike gynecomastia, includes development of ducts, lobules and acini histologically identical to cisgender women. Pseudolactational changes have also been described [16]. Figure 2 shows an example of lobule formation and pseudolactational changes in the breast biopsy from a transgender woman. We have also observed lobular development similar to a pre-pubertal breast in the setting of estrogen treatment of transgender females"

link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s40134-018-0260-1

@DifficultPifcultLemonDifficult

Gosh, what an entirely comparable argument.

Driving a car without a license and insurance because you think it's a food mixer truely is the same as someone who has been through surgery and is taking hormones and is just living their life happily being recognised legally as the sex they now are.

Are you happy having made all that up so you could create a narrative and then have an indignant curl of the lip at someone? Because that is not what I said at all. It is indeed a false representation of what I said for your own ends.

I was referring to an absurd notion which was raised by a poster. I was referring to a poster saying that they are sticking by their own opinions, even in the context of their opinions being contrary to fact. I was just pointing how ludicrous that idea is by giving a concrete example of 'opinion' vs fact.

eg. Someone holding an 'opinion' that their (in the real world) car is a food mixer. That would be bollocks as a car is not a food mixer. A car is, in fact, a car. That is a fact, irrespective of any 'opinion' someone holds about what a car is.

No need to have another rant about something else entirely. It is about a fact remaining a fact despite anyone's 'opinions'.

So, if I hold the 'opinion' that my car is a food mixer, do I need a driving licence and insurance? Could I argue that before the beak?

@DifficultPifcultLemonDifficult

Gosh, what an entirely comparable argument.

Driving a car without a license and insurance because you think it's a food mixer truely is the same as someone who has been through surgery and is taking hormones and is just living their life happily being recognised legally as the sex they now are.

Are you happy having made all that up so you could create a narrative and then have an indignant curl of the lip at someone? Because that is not what I said at all. It is indeed a false representation of what I said for your own ends.

I was referring to an absurd notion which was raised by a poster. I was referring to a poster saying that they are sticking by their own opinions, even in the context of their opinions being contrary to fact. I was just pointing how ludicrous that idea is by giving a concrete example of 'opinion' vs fact.

eg. Someone holding an 'opinion' that their (in the real world) car is a food mixer. That would be bollocks as a car is not a food mixer. A car is, in fact, a car. That is a fact, irrespective of any 'opinion' someone holds about what a car is.

No need to have another rant about something else entirely. It is about a fact remaining a fact despite anyone's 'opinions'.

So, if I hold the 'opinion' that my car is a food mixer, do I need a driving licence and insurance? Could I argue that before the beak?

I’d only involve the school if the child started bullying your child is. Accusing them and labelling them as transphobic. Or perhaps you might be in a situation where this other child accuses your child of bullying them and being a ‘transphobe’. At the moment it’s two kids having a discussion about something that is very much permeating our children’s lives at the moment. Just stay tuned and see where it goes.

@334bu

" Yes, a fully transitioned trans women on hormones for a long time will have breast tissue, changed nipple structure, female type fat distribution such as a subcutaneous layer of fat, female body hair patterns, and a whole range of other more subtle pysical differences as well as genitalia which looks like a vagina. If you sent her back in time to before trans healthcare and her body was externally examined she would be declared a woman and that would have been considered a fact."

BBC News - Milk ducts: Image of female breast anatomy goes viral
www.bbc.co.uk/news/newsbeat-48051236

I am quite sure those cavemen might feel the difference.

I wouldn't be so sure

"The histologic effect of high levels of estrogen utilized for transition from male to female, unlike gynecomastia, includes development of ducts, lobules and acini histologically identical to cisgender women. Pseudolactational changes have also been described [16]. Figure 2 shows an example of lobule formation and pseudolactational changes in the breast biopsy from a transgender woman. We have also observed lobular development similar to a pre-pubertal breast in the setting of estrogen treatment of transgender females"

link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s40134-018-0260-1

I was referring to an absurd notion which was raised by a poster. I was referring to a poster saying that they are sticking by their own opinions, even in the context of their opinions being contrary to fact. I was just pointing how ludicrous that idea is by giving a concrete example of 'opinion' vs fact.

But it's not opinion over fact, it's opinion over opinion. If you concede that human sex changes could one day be possible then at what point would the change happen. Chromosones, reproductive capacity, testes changed to ovaries, uterus implants, hormones, surgery? Surely at what point the change happens is a matter of opinion? There are no objective facts here.

I’d only involve the school if the child started bullying your child is. Accusing them and labelling them as transphobic. Or perhaps you might be in a situation where this other child accuses your child of bullying them and being a ‘transphobe’. At the moment it’s two kids having a discussion about something that is very much permeating our children’s lives at the moment. Just stay tuned and see where it goes.

I think I just stepped into an another dimension ! A world where wishful thinking is reality and reality is merely wishful thinking. Ok I give up there's no arguing with stupid! 😜🤪

Gosh, sorry for posting that twice.

Facts remain facts, irrespective of opinion. If we're in the territory of opinion about futuristic possibilities, is it possible to come back from the dead? Because some people paid a lot of money to be cryogenically frozen in anticipation of that possibility.

So, if someone asked you if people can come back from the dead, would you really say it is a matter of opinion?

Gosh, sorry for posting that twice.

I was referring to an absurd notion which was raised by a poster. I was referring to a poster saying that they are sticking by their own opinions, even in the context of their opinions being contrary to fact. I was just pointing how ludicrous that idea is by giving a concrete example of 'opinion' vs fact.

But it's not opinion over fact, it's opinion over opinion. If you concede that human sex changes could one day be possible then at what point would the change happen. Chromosones, reproductive capacity, testes changed to ovaries, uterus implants, hormones, surgery? Surely at what point the change happens is a matter of opinion? There are no objective facts here.

I think I just stepped into an another dimension ! A world where wishful thinking is reality and reality is merely wishful thinking. Ok I give up there's no arguing with stupid! 😜🤪

If you concede that human sex changes could one day be possible then at what point would the change happen.

Why are you going to fantasy land to discuss 10 year old son being accused of transphobia? And, what is your skin in the game? Asking for a friend, possibly twice

@Cailleach1

Facts remain facts, irrespective of opinion. If we're in the territory of opinion about futuristic possibilities, is it possible to come back from the dead? Because some people paid a lot of money to be cryogenically frozen in anticipation of that possibility.

So, if someone asked you if people can come back from the dead, would you really say it is a matter of opinion?

No because that's a hard line. Someone is either dead or alive. But in the realms of futuristic treatment, and some are possibly not that far away, the ten year old being discussed in this thread may live to see them, then at what point would a sex change be achieved? Surely that can only be a matter of opinion, its a sliding scale after all, there isn't a magic switch. And so if say a stem cell grown uterus and genetically created ovaries constituted a sex change then why not hormones and a neovagina? I'm not saying that is necessarily the case, it just seems to be a matter of opinion rather than hard fact to me.

Is someone born male but with a female endocrine system, female secondary sexual characteristics, female appearing genitalia and a female presentation necessarily a man?

Yes. Hope that's clear. It's not possible to change sex, and therefore stating that is a fact, and not an opinion. Fevered sci fi imagination notwithstanding.

It's an opinion that dinosaurs existed, because we may find out later that it was an elaborate hoax.

Irregardless of a persons gender identity during their lifetime skeletons come in 2 varieties male or female.

No because that's a hard line. Someone is either dead or alive.

Who says? If you clone a dead person and they have the endocrine system, secondary sexual characteristics, genitalia and presentation of an alive person, can we necessarily say the person is still dead?

@peachsquish

Irregardless of a persons gender identity during their lifetime skeletons come in 2 varieties male or female.

Okay so its down to skeletons. So if everything else was changed, if a trans women could conceive and bring a baby to term, she still wouldn't have had changed sex because skeletons? That sounds a lot like an opinion to me, and one I suspect wouldn't be widely shared were it to happen. And what if skeletons can one day be changed?

@Ereshkigalangcleg

No because that's a hard line. Someone is either dead or alive.

Who says? If you clone a dead person and they have the endocrine system, secondary sexual characteristics, genitalia and presentation of an alive person, can we necessarily say the person is still dead?

You can, but I think in that case it would be an opinion, and possibly a philosophical one about the nature of personhood at that. There's probably a PhD in it.