BBC Bitsize - Pronouns

[OhHolyJesus]

I mean I'm not surprised but Bitesize is used by schools through the country as a supposed reliable, unbiased source of education material.

mobile.twitter.com/SafeSchools_UK/status/1319025713475952641?fbclid=IwAR0rTBD2j5PKOeTKvYSSX90c4RUDmJDo7Zg613qnDBXNaAncv3J8epYWLSQ

You can complain here:

www.bbc.co.uk/contact/complaints/make-a-complaint

Or email your MP and cc MPs Safe Schools Alliance on info@safeschoolsallianceuk.

In the tweet thread there are some people already complaining. I'm not a defund the BBC kind of person but I can see why license fee layers are questioning what the BBC are doing with their money (there is a website 'BBC complaints' that's all about biased Brexit coverage).

For me, it's the over dramatic language that's used. We need to call them such and such to make them feel 'safe'. I'm sorry, it comes across as pathetic.

And if I have to say ze/zir or whatever, it feels like I'm taking the piss, mocking a foreign accent or something. I'm not comfortable with it, it doesn't feel natural at all. So I have to be uncomfortable to make someone else comfortable.

Then there are the people who change pronouns. So do I then have a duty to look up what someone wants to be called from week to week, or day to day? Because being completely honest, I can't be arsed. It smacks of narcissism, and other people just don't interest me that much.

jj a good start would be, as so many women have said for so very long, would be not to dismiss what women say and insist that what you have to say is more important.

What you want to discuss is important. But can only happen once there is no obfuscation about who we are talking about. So the day all TRAs admit that sex is immutable we can start a proper discussion. Until then women will say no... and continue to point out all of those times that it made a difference and harmed a woman.

@jj1968

Crossdressers do not live in the female role, they dress occassionally, so it's not really comparable.

This is the account of being 'trans' that you posted a screenshot of.

I was not ‘born in the wrong body’. I’m fortunate in that I like my body and I don’t want to change it. For me, transitioning was about the social aspects: my name, my appearance, how I dressed, and most importantly, having other people understand me as the real me. It has never been about the medical side of things. However, to change my legal gender, I have to provide a doctor’s signature to confirm that I have a diagnosis of gender dysphoria. But I don’t need any medical treatment, so why should I have to have a doctor’s appointment for what is a legal process?

This (male) person says that they have changed their name, apearance and clothing, but has not had medical treatment and doesn't want it, but wants to change their legally recognised sex. How is this different from a crossdresser?

Since being 'trans' is no longer about being 'born in the wrong body' (and according to the new narrative it never was), what is it now, other than stereotypes?

It's the enforcement. See posts upthread about real life cases of people being pursued into court for not using correct pronouns. Typically autistic behaviour is not accepted as a defense, excuse, reason when transwomen are the aggrieved party!

Who has been pursued into court for not using correct pronouns?

Non binary fir males seems to be an orange tu tu

Up here in Scotland I think you'll find that it's sparkly wellies that maketh the man non-binary, that's if our first ever nb councillor is to be believed...

[quote jj1968]@OldCrone No offence, but I've given my views on this several times. I'm much more interested in discussing how society can manage trans inclusion and acceptance than I am in having endless debates that lead nowhere about whether trans women are women.[/quote]
I didn't say anything about whether transwomen are women (they're not, obviously). But we need to know what 'trans' is if we are supposed to include and accept trans people and decide on what terms we should 'include and accept' them.

Is Philip Bunce trans? What about Eddie Izzard? Alex Drummond?

And what does 'live in the female role' mean? Are all women supposed to 'live in the female role' if they don't identify as 'trans'? I'd like to know if I am 'living in the female role' and whether I am no longer considered by you to be a woman if I don't conform to whatever this is.

@jj1968

It's the enforcement. See posts upthread about real life cases of people being pursued into court for not using correct pronouns. Typically autistic behaviour is not accepted as a defense, excuse, reason when transwomen are the aggrieved party!

Who has been pursued into court for not using correct pronouns?

Maya Forstater?

@Whatwouldscullydo

How is using a sex based pronoun remotely the same as racist slur.

Perhaps stop constantly tying these demands to years of racism and sexism and homophobia suffered by people of colour , women and gay people for decades . Being correctly sexed is not offensive or abusive.

Pronouns have always been based on gender, that's how things like ships ended up being referring to in the feminine.

Acceptable words for people of different ethnicities and sexualities have changed considerably over the years and there are many terms that were used which would be regarded as offensive today. And the people who still use them complain of things like forced speech or not being able to state what they view as correctly identifying someone's ethnicity in the language they choose. But those people are arseholes, what's wrong with just being polite?

*even though, actually, I believe she has said she respects individuals pronouns.

Why do you always pretend to not know jj

It was in the news. The autistic teen arrested fir asking a pcso if they were a boy or a girl.

Susie greens ted talk is nothing nut born in the wrong body , a homphobic husband and stereotypes. Its right there on you tube so yes its what kids were being told

No one can even define trans. Its not born in the wrong body its not stereotypes amd its not a mental health condition.

What is it we are going to tell children whilst demanding they lie to preserve feelings?

No pronouns are sex based. Even those of us who don't believe in gender use them.

Such fake naivety and ignorance! Information already posted in the thread, other posts of long standing across FWR... but no!

jj has no knowledge of them.

Tiresome!!!!

And talk about trabs without using race and sexuality as a cover to shut down discussion.

Why is correctly sexing offensive ?

Here you are jj.

www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/teen-prosecuted-after-asking-whether-17651755

The court heard Armstrong, who acts as a carer for a man he considers his father, had been diagnosed with Asperger syndrome and suffered from anxiety and depression.

But obviously the transgender PCSO was much more vulnerable than this young man.

Who has been pursued into court for not using correct pronouns?

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7943147/Teenage-yob-ordered-pay-compensation-transgender-police-officer-abuse.html

An autistic teenager, who was also a carer for his stepfather, branded a 'yob' for having autistic traits. Being asked if they were a boy or a girl made a police officer (PCSO) too traumatized and afraid to patrol alone

It was rightly condemned by autism groups.
www.adultistic.com/news/teen-aspergers-charged-hate-crime-transgender-officer

Beat me to it Crone.

Pronouns have always been based on gender, that's how things like ships ended up being referring to in the feminine.

What? I mean, it always irritates me when men call objects "she" because it seems to epitomise how they really see women.

But if pronouns are based on gender, what is it about a ship that is feminine? The ship doesn't have an identity, it's an object.

Or are you just talking nonsense to side-track someone like me who is easily distracted?

Maya Forstater?

Taking someone to court is not the same as being pursued into court.

You're being diseingenous @bessica. As a bisexual woman myself, I can categorically state that "gender identity" has about as much to do with sexuality as eating biscuits. However, unlike eating biscuits and being bisexual, it forces everyone else to tell Big Lies daily, under the pretence of "being kind". I'm interested to know where you'd draw the line at the lies you're happy to be forced to tell? Should we be legally compelled to make ugly people supermodels? Should anorexics be told they're as fat as they think they are? Should we all say the world is flat so we don't upset the Flatearthers?!

Goodness! Show me a woman - any woman - who hasn't had way worse than that shouted after her in the street at some point, just for being female in public. Nothing to see, move along, no hate crime there, just a woman being verbally abused as she must expect to be, going out with obvious breasts and that.

Wait till misogyny is a hate crime. The courts won't handle anything else but the backlog for a decade.

Acceptable words for people of different ethnicities and sexualities have changed considerably over the years

Well yes, language does change. I am not the sort of person to use dismissive/offensive words about people.

I don't see what that has to do with describing a man as a man, calling him he, or calling a woman a woman and using she. It's some impressive doublethink required to find that offensive, the words man and he are still in common use, I believe.

@OldCrone

Here you are jj.

www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/teen-prosecuted-after-asking-whether-17651755

The court heard Armstrong, who acts as a carer for a man he considers his father, had been diagnosed with Asperger syndrome and suffered from anxiety and depression.

But obviously the transgender PCSO was much more vulnerable than this young man.

Nothing to do with pronouns.

As it happens I think that prosecution was petty. But the police often are petty, I imagine if he'd shouted that at a masculine appearing lesbian police officer he would be equally likely to end up in court. Probably best not to shout insulting things at coppers as a general rule if you want to avoid prosecution.

Presumably the court weren't persuaded that his Aspergers diagnosis was the reason for his behaviour.

It might sort of work I suppose if you knew one person who required different pronouns. But more than that and no-one is going to keep up with it are they?

I mean I'm clever and articulate and neurotypical and I can imagine it would make my head hurt a little bit if I had to refer to Tony as they or zi or something. But add Cath who wants to be xi into the mix and I'd be fucked. So I probably wouldn't talk about Cath or Tony and no-one else would much either because life's hard enough without stressing about this shit and Cath and Tony would possibly think we were all very non-binary phobic as we started to leave x/zem out but really it would just be because x/zey are fucking hard work.

Sorry Cath and Tony. I learned pronouns 40 years ago and zey are pretty hardwired now. It would have been nice to go bowling with you but really, 'I know Tony wants a beer but can you ask zem if zi wanted a pint or a half' is never going to happen outside Twitter. Or a Green Party Conference.

Why is man/woman/boy/girl an insult?

The CJS sent me a letter addressed to MR scully...

Should I sue?

Why is correctly sexing offensive ?