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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

BBC Bitsize - Pronouns

837 replies

OhHolyJesus · 22/10/2020 09:27

I mean I'm not surprised but Bitesize is used by schools through the country as a supposed reliable, unbiased source of education material.

mobile.twitter.com/SafeSchools_UK/status/1319025713475952641?fbclid=IwAR0rTBD2j5PKOeTKvYSSX90c4RUDmJDo7Zg613qnDBXNaAncv3J8epYWLSQ

You can complain here:

www.bbc.co.uk/contact/complaints/make-a-complaint

Or email your MP and cc MPs Safe Schools Alliance on info@safeschoolsallianceuk.

In the tweet thread there are some people already complaining. I'm not a defund the BBC kind of person but I can see why license fee layers are questioning what the BBC are doing with their money (there is a website 'BBC complaints' that's all about biased Brexit coverage).

OP posts:
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jj1968 · 22/10/2020 15:57

@SophocIestheFox

Here you are Smile
So just one person describing their own experience, hardly a position statement.
OldCrone · 22/10/2020 16:01

@jj1968

It's only since they adopted an anti women and girl misogynistic approach, promoting the "born in the wrong body" carp

Can you point to where they adopt this approach because I could only find one reference to it on their website which appears to say the opposite?

That screenshot is about transitioning as changing name, clothes and appearance. So are you (and Stonewall) now claiming that 'transitioning' is all about superficial stereotypes, and not about discomfort with one's sexed body and making physical changes to it?

So using Stonewall's new definition of 'trans', a man who loves his penis but likes to wear "women's" clothes and use a female name, is just as 'trans' (or perhaps more so?) than a man who hates his male body and wishes he had a female body. We used to call these men crossdressers or transvestites, but now it seems they are just the same as 'transwomen'. Or maybe these are the only 'transwomen', and what used to be called 'transwomen' (men who hate their sexed bodies and take hormones and have surgery to change their bodies) are now called something else. 'Truscum', perhaps.

Have I got this right jj?

jj1968 · 22/10/2020 16:05

Crossdressers do not live in the female role, they dress occassionally, so it's not really comparable.

Swallowzandamazons · 22/10/2020 16:06

Wait, Stonewall says trans is nothing to do with gender dysphoria now? It's about clothing preferences and hair length etc? God. I'm looking forward to my 25% pay rise, seeing as I'm clearly a bloke....

SophocIestheFox · 22/10/2020 16:14

I rather though that would be your response Grin

Not sure why they would choose to publish something that’s wildly off message. It’s like an opinion piece on how great private jets are by Greta Thunberg in BPs quarterly newsletter.

But I digress. As Eurasia has always been at war with Oceania, nobody ever said that humans can be born in the wrong body.

HecatesCats · 22/10/2020 16:19

The image pictures a mixed sex changing room and a mixed sex sports team and the person with she/her pronouns has pink socks on and the person with he/him has blue socks on. It's is propaganda for one side of an incredibly heated debate on both single sex facilities and single sex sports and assigning pink and blue is regressive nonsense. This is teeth grindingly poor form from the BBC, which claims to be impartial but just cannot bring itself to be impartial on women's rights because it's institutionally sexist.

CuriousaboutSamphire · 22/10/2020 16:23

jj wash your mouth out. You transphobe!!!

Stonewall's umbrella.... take a look, see what they say about who is trans!

Whatwouldscullydo · 22/10/2020 16:24

mobile.twitter.com/LilyLilyMaynard/status/1309621415079968770

More evidence of the born in the wrong body narrative

Malahaha · 22/10/2020 16:27

Here's a list of current pronouns. I'm not sure if it's serious or not but the second image with the tweet directed to Titiana McGrath suggests thet it is genuine. It's hard to read with that black background but you get the gist, no need to read them all.
Jane Harris posted it on her FB.

BBC Bitsize - Pronouns
BBC Bitsize - Pronouns
gardenbird48 · 22/10/2020 16:43

so, addressing people by their preferred pronouns - how does that work? I am struggling slightly to come up with an appropriate grammatical sentence. As my lovely grandma used to say, if someone you were referring to was in earshot 'who's she, the cats mother?' (not sure if anyone else has heard of that) but basically, if someone can hear you referring to them, you use their name and obviously if you are talking directly to them you use 'you' - how else could it be phrased to incorporate they or zie?

Secondly, what actually is non binary? I thought it was not feeling particularly male or female but the person I know, after a visit to the gender clinic and 'addressing their internalised transphobia', realised that they were not actually a lesbian but non-binary and 4 months later are on 'T' and waiting for the double mastectomy. Why, if you don't feel particularly male or female do you then alter your female body to present male?

Whatwouldscullydo · 22/10/2020 16:49

Non binary fir males seems to be an orange tu tu

Non binary fir females seems to mean breast binding and mastectomies.

Its equally as harmful as the rest of it. I dont understand how something only exists in order to define yourself against but not in anyone else's reality.

Antibles · 22/10/2020 16:58

I dont think gaslighting children enables us to keep them safe. Its not the harmless inclusive gesture it makes out.

Yes, it's gaslighting - and compelled speech.

Whatwouldscullydo · 22/10/2020 17:03

Kids trust their parents. Kids trust their teachers and their sports coaches etc

If God forbid they were to find out the hard way that one or all have not been entirely accurate then I really fear for the vulnerable position that leads them in and who they then turn to whilst cut off from theor family and other trusted adults.

How far do you take be kind?

nitsandwormsdodger · 22/10/2020 17:13

Sorry i don't see the problem with using a pronoun that makes the other person happy ? How is this a problem? I can explain this to my child easily
I'm obviously missing something?

Whatwouldscullydo · 22/10/2020 17:17

Because pronouns are what you use when someones not even there .

Do you think one person should he given the power to control the conversation even when not around ?

What if your kid gets into rouble for forgetting or gets distressed because X is a girl and your son is distressed because he can see its not true that he has to call them he?

What if your kid was autistic and cannot lie ?

nitsandwormsdodger · 22/10/2020 17:22

Ok I'm gonna sound like a wholly hippy now but can't we try to call people what ever makes them happy , be kind and understanding if we slip up or have difficulty saying correct pronoun
Safe spaces for women / safeguarding is a different level altogether and obviously we need to protect that. But I can't see any harm in trying to call someone by the name and pronouns they prefer

OldCrone · 22/10/2020 17:24

@jj1968

Crossdressers do not live in the female role, they dress occassionally, so it's not really comparable.
What does 'live in the female role' mean? And how does a man 'live in the female role'?
Whatwouldscullydo · 22/10/2020 17:25

It doesn't work that way though does it

You cant pretend you acknowledge they are not what you see with a pronoun then have to enforce the boundary a few mins later getting changed for pe.

Lying can be extremely distressing for some. The stress of slipping up would make some kids really anxious.

Cocothefirst · 22/10/2020 17:26

@nitsandwormsdodger

Sorry i don't see the problem with using a pronoun that makes the other person happy ? How is this a problem? I can explain this to my child easily I'm obviously missing something?
A useful post for you.

fairplayforwomen.com/pronouns/

gardenbird48 · 22/10/2020 17:27

nitsandworms - can you give me an example of how you would do this please? Are you talking about when the person is present or not present?

jj1968 · 22/10/2020 17:30

Because pronouns are what you use when someones not even there

This isn't true, you might indicate that's hers/his to a waiter for example when food is served.

Do you think one person should he given the power to control the conversation even when not around

Do you think it's acceptable to use racist slurs, or derogatory terms based on someone's sexuality as long as they aren't present?

jj1968 · 22/10/2020 17:33

@OldCrone No offence, but I've given my views on this several times. I'm much more interested in discussing how society can manage trans inclusion and acceptance than I am in having endless debates that lead nowhere about whether trans women are women.

Whatwouldscullydo · 22/10/2020 17:33

How is using a sex based pronoun remotely the same as racist slur.

Perhaps stop constantly tying these demands to years of racism and sexism and homophobia suffered by people of colour , women and gay people for decades . Being correctly sexed is not offensive or abusive.

CuriousaboutSamphire · 22/10/2020 17:34

It's the enforcement. See posts upthread about real life cases of people being pursued into court for not using correct pronouns. Typically autistic behaviour is not accepted as a defense, excuse, reason when transwomen are the aggrieved party!

Think about what it means in a larger sense. Girls can no longer say but he is a boy... when a boy is in what is supposed to be her safe, single sex space. She cannot say that out loud as he is she, and those pronouns MUST be honoured.

So girls are no longer able to say no, are being taught that what they feel is secondary to what a boy might feel.

And what about the boys? Not a stereotypically roughy thought boy? My! You must be a girl then! How screwed up is that?

And feel free to reverse the sexes on all parts of that. It's equally screwed up whichever way it happens. Though oddly almost all of the memes, cartoons and attention seems to be on the males who want to transition.

Pronouns are the tip of the iceberg. They muddy the waters making it hard to say what you want to say without being offensive and automatically in the wrong.

Words are important. They create our social reality. Fuck around with them and you unstitch the mores that make society work!

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