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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

BBC Bitsize - Pronouns

837 replies

OhHolyJesus · 22/10/2020 09:27

I mean I'm not surprised but Bitesize is used by schools through the country as a supposed reliable, unbiased source of education material.

mobile.twitter.com/SafeSchools_UK/status/1319025713475952641?fbclid=IwAR0rTBD2j5PKOeTKvYSSX90c4RUDmJDo7Zg613qnDBXNaAncv3J8epYWLSQ

You can complain here:

www.bbc.co.uk/contact/complaints/make-a-complaint

Or email your MP and cc MPs Safe Schools Alliance on info@safeschoolsallianceuk.

In the tweet thread there are some people already complaining. I'm not a defund the BBC kind of person but I can see why license fee layers are questioning what the BBC are doing with their money (there is a website 'BBC complaints' that's all about biased Brexit coverage).

OP posts:
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SophocIestheFox · 23/10/2020 17:46

@CaraDuneRedux

and that time the milk went off, even though there were still three days until the use by date.

Evil old witches turning your milk sour since 1693.

Grin

And fair point re the perennial value of letting things stand, just as they are, and people can form their own views.

Cocothefirst · 23/10/2020 17:49

JJ

We said no to sharing women's single sex spaces.

It's not a negotiation.

No

KnightsofColumbusThatHurt · 23/10/2020 17:51

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Whatwouldscullydo · 23/10/2020 17:52

Careful knight you are shaming the only victim that mattered in that refuge Hmm

merrymouse · 23/10/2020 17:53

A very small number of women have said no, and they've said it decades after trans inclusion began.

1). It really doesn't matter how small the number of women, there is no reason why their voices shouldn't be heard.

2). 'Decades'? The EA was in 2010. Stonewall started campaigning against single sex spaces in 2015. There is a massive difference the 1970s concept of a transexual (Jan Morris) and the 2020s concept of being trans.

KnightsofColumbusThatHurt · 23/10/2020 17:54

Have you seen Dawn Butler's mentions, or Ash Sarkars? Women have literally been murdered for standing up to the far right. The same far right that some gender critical activists seem happy to court incidentally.

Yeah, TRAs seem to have a lot in common with the far right when it comes to harassing women, despite their claims about 'kindness and compassion'.

When it comes to a woman stating that her lived experience as a female actually means something that 'kindness and compassion' seems to go out the window doesn't it?

CaraDuneRedux · 23/10/2020 17:58

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BernardBlackMissesLangCleg · 23/10/2020 18:04

jeez louise, i'd not seen that picture

that's the kind of person who JJ is fighting to be allowed in women's refuges?

good fucking heavens

BernardBlackMissesLangCleg · 23/10/2020 18:06

I expect that post will go poof very shortly

the pictures often make such a compelling case that the monitors can rarely bear to let them stand

That picture is of a man finding sexual gratification from being in women's space. say what you see

EvenSupposing · 23/10/2020 18:07

Yes Cara. Except jj calls rhat person 'a vulnerable homeless teenager' and implies that anyone sharing the photo is creating CSA images.

No really lurkers. I couldn't believe it either, but it's true. Grin

KnightsofColumbusThatHurt · 23/10/2020 18:10

Yes Cara. Except jj calls rhat person 'a vulnerable homeless teenager' and implies that anyone sharing the photo is creating CSA images.

I haven't read the whole thread, is that seriously what was said????!!!

CharlieParley · 23/10/2020 18:10

@jj1968

Barrel and bottom of.

It's true I'm afraid. A lot of women in the sector are really pissed off with you. They think you're distracting from the true problems facing the sector which is the funding crisis, putting survivors at risk by creating unnecessary fears and are deeply insulted that you think they would put women at risk when few of you know anything about how the sector actually operates

Time for my comment once again jj1968 as to who founded, co-founded and contributed to many of the new grassroots women's rights group across the UK:

Frontline workers, management and even a board member or two of organisations in the Violence against Women and Girls sector. Women in the sector who have found themselves unable to freely raise their concerns against the inclusion of males in the female-only spaces and therapeutic environments they work in.

They cannot speak up publicly not only for the already much discussed serious repercussions for themselves but also because this could mean no longer being able to mitigate against the negative impact of self-id policies on the female victims of male violence they care for. But they come to our meetings. They found, run or support their own local or national groups. Many attended a closed session at the Scottish Parliament to report on the issues with and concerns about self-id within services set up to help female victims of male violence recover.

As for your assertion that the sector itself has said there are no problems with including males in female-only spaces and therapeutic environments and we should therefore stop saying there are, I shall tell you once again that I am part of a group of survivors and mothers of survivors who have met with the management of such an organisation to inform them of the problems caused by their self-id policies, of the actual - not theoretical - harm they have already done to women and girls and to make suggestions as to how they could safely and easily (because it is actually surprisingly easy) accommodate males without including them in the female-only therapeutic environment. They did not care. They forbade us from speaking about the meeting and then went online to proclaim loudly, once again, that there had never been the slightest problem with their self-id policies.

And then we found out we were neither the only survivors experiencing problems nor the first to raise it with the service.

And the same thing is happening across the UK. Survivors informing services of the problems, frontline workers experiencing problems and management denying them. I know because I've met these women, because they come here on Mumsnet to talk about it, because they publish their experiences on blogs, websites and social media, because they write to the papers and some even go on TV or radio to do so.

I do not doubt you know women working within the sector who hate women like me speaking out about the damage they're doing. I have spoken to management of a different sector organisation who told me they feel beleaguered and unfairly attacked, but who understood in the end that our aims are the same: to allow all the victims of male violence who they cater to to receive the help they need. Who then said they wished they could publicly defend the right of female victims to female-only services, but even if they weren't worried about the backlash from self-id proponents, their funding conditions make that impossible.

So jj1968 you may know women in the sector who are angry at us. I know women in the sector who are campaigning with us and are angry at those denying female victims the right to female-only provisions.

Whatwouldscullydo · 23/10/2020 18:11

Consent seems to matter with the photo. Not so much with a penis free space

ArcheryAnnie · 23/10/2020 18:28

Most women's services were started by women who had nothing, and who put time and energy and resources they couldn't spare - but spared anyway - in order to help themselves and other women. Some of the early refuges were started in squats.

Stonewall - to take one example of a trans activism group - has reserves of about 5 million quid, an annual turnover of more than a million and a half quid, and something like 160 employees. Their CEO makes over £100k pa, and several more of their employees aren't far behind.

Can you imagine if Stonewall devoted a fraction of these considerable resources to campaigning for refuge provision for gender nonconforming men, instead of campaigning to steal women's refuges from the women that need them?

EvenSupposing · 23/10/2020 18:31

@KnightsofColumbusThatHurt

Yes Cara. Except jj calls rhat person 'a vulnerable homeless teenager' and implies that anyone sharing the photo is creating CSA images.

I haven't read the whole thread, is that seriously what was said????!!!

Yup. And something about how the person would have felt uncomfortable about being in the shelter and that's why they took and shared the photo.

To which many of us commented that we thought the person looked fairly comfortable to us, particularly in the reflection. But that was thought to be unkind too Grin

Whatwouldscullydo · 23/10/2020 18:33

I haven't read the whole thread, is that seriously what was said????!!!

Not on this thread knight

But there was another thread with sone serious darvo going on re that person.

Someone really does not see us as human

Blindingly0bvious · 23/10/2020 18:35

I don't like being called "you lot" and the gleeful tone set.

Will this torrent of spite on this thread never stop?

Maybe, it seems someone has gone for a wee lie down. Different time zone?

Datun · 23/10/2020 18:44

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Datun · 23/10/2020 18:50

@KnightsofColumbusThatHurt

Yes Cara. Except jj calls rhat person 'a vulnerable homeless teenager' and implies that anyone sharing the photo is creating CSA images.

I haven't read the whole thread, is that seriously what was said????!!!

It was, indeed. That person uploaded naked photos of themselves in a women's shelter and boasted of intimidating the women there.

JJ was of the opinion that this person was really the victim, because outraged and fearful women were drawing attention to it.

It probably ticks at least half of the rules of misogyny.

CaraDuneRedux · 23/10/2020 18:55

It probably ticks at least half of the rules of misogyny.

Starting with "The worst thing about male violence is that it makes men look bad."

CharlieParley · 23/10/2020 18:59

@EvenSupposing

Yes Cara. Except jj calls rhat person 'a vulnerable homeless teenager' and implies that anyone sharing the photo is creating CSA images.

No really lurkers. I couldn't believe it either, but it's true. Grin

And after we explained that no, sharing this image was not illegal under the UK's fairly new law on revenge porn, jj1968 then triumphantly declared it to be illegal under Canada's law on voyeurism.

Which it isn't, of course. As the text of the law (Criminal Code (R.S.C., 1985, c. C-46, s. 162)) mentioned in the article jj1968 linked to makes quite clear.

Datun · 23/10/2020 19:03

What kind of person tries to intimidate women into not informing other women about a sexual predator, whilst simultaneously campaigning that for predator to have access to their intimate spaces?

Datun · 23/10/2020 19:04

'For that', not 'that for' !

Wizzybus · 23/10/2020 19:05

The comments here are just so saddening to me. It is not gaslighting to explain that someone is not comfortable with the gender society wants to force on them and wants to express themselves in a way that is comfortable for them. Not teaching your children about actual pronoun use is like teaching them to count but excluding the number 6 because you don't like it. It makes no sense. In fact, pretending that they/them or ze/zer are not pronouns that are in fact used by people is the real gaslighting.

AskingQuestionsAllTheTime · 23/10/2020 19:08

It's not offensive at all to wish to wear whatever you choose and express yourself however you want to (though there are places where saying whatever you want is not entirely a good idea -- I've known some pubs....)

What is offensive is requiring the whole of the rest of the world to alter in order to accommodate your wishes.

And it is probably gaslighting to try to convince someone, by sleight of hand, that a lie you have told is a fact.

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