BBC Bitsize - Pronouns

[OhHolyJesus]

I mean I'm not surprised but Bitesize is used by schools through the country as a supposed reliable, unbiased source of education material.

mobile.twitter.com/SafeSchools_UK/status/1319025713475952641?fbclid=IwAR0rTBD2j5PKOeTKvYSSX90c4RUDmJDo7Zg613qnDBXNaAncv3J8epYWLSQ

You can complain here:

www.bbc.co.uk/contact/complaints/make-a-complaint

Or email your MP and cc MPs Safe Schools Alliance on info@safeschoolsallianceuk.

In the tweet thread there are some people already complaining. I'm not a defund the BBC kind of person but I can see why license fee layers are questioning what the BBC are doing with their money (there is a website 'BBC complaints' that's all about biased Brexit coverage).

I teach EFL abroad and my very bright advanced level teens got a few questions wrong on a recent mock because they were looking for plural nouns to match the they pronoun - in fact 'They' had been used to mask the gender of the subject to make it less easily identifiable for the sake of the exam.

Pronouns are learnt at preschool english level so it's not something we had covered and it didn't cross my mind! That we have to explain that now really really early on.

All the ze/ve nonsense will be a headache. I'm all for non binary or trans people opting for they (singular) if that's what they (comfortable) feel happy with, I'm used to having non gendered language (Romance language omits the pronoun and goes straight to a third person verb) but inventing new ones... big eye roll.

ze/zer are not pronouns that are in fact used by people is the real gaslighting.

I wonder how many of the people who want this new language used are computer people. No, bear with me: computer language (or jargon, or whatever) frequently appropriates a perfectly good English word and uses it to mean something which is nothing whatever to do with the original meaning -- boot and mouse are both fairly obvious, but there are dozens, perhaps hundreds, of others which I have to look up to be sure I know what is being said. Appropriating the perfectly good and well-defined English word "woman" and wanting it used to mean something not in the original definition seems to be in much the same category. The difference is that boots and mice can't say "oy, that word means us! go and think of one of your own", whereas women can.

@testing987654321

ze/zer are not pronouns that are in fact used by people is the real gaslighting.

Another one on team eye-roll here. Ze/zer, xie/xem, etc. etc.

There are feckin hundreds of the things. All made up. All arbitrary. And their users will use them as an excuse to throw a hissy fit if you get Sam (xie/xem) confused with Jo (ze/zer) or Micky/ie (she/him/they depending on day of the week and clothing choice).

There's being polite to people. Then there's indulging narcissistic twats. Happy to do the former, life is too fucking short for the latter.

@Wizzybus

The comments here are just so saddening to me. It is not gaslighting to explain that someone is not comfortable with the gender society wants to force on them and wants to express themselves in a way that is comfortable for them. Not teaching your children about actual pronoun use is like teaching them to count but excluding the number 6 because you don't like it. It makes no sense. In fact, pretending that they/them or ze/zer are not pronouns that are in fact used by people is the real gaslighting.

You cannot have read our comments and taken that away from it. Because that is not what any of us said.

We are not against anyone seeking to express their preferences for the sex stereotypes and sex role stereotypes associated with the opposite sex.

We are not against teaching children that some people are more comfortable conforming to the sex stereotypes and sex role stereotypes associated with the opposite sex.

What we are against is teaching children that when a person expresses a preference, however strong or sincerely felt, for the sex stereotypes and sex role stereotypes associated with the opposite sex they actually become a person of the opposite sex and that they must agree that this person is now the opposite sex or be branded as unkind, hateful or transphobic.

And not teaching our children that they cannot expect everyone around them to deny material reality in favour of their personal beliefs is irresponsible. It sets them up for a life of sheer misery, because everyone has a right to freedom of thought, belief and expression. And the sooner they learn that the better.

What makes children happy isn't always good for them. More importantly, striving to make our children happy instead of acquainting them with the truth and material facts about life and the world they live in, does not help them grow into strong, resilient, independent and successful adults.

I wonder how many of the people who want this new language used are computer people.

I'd be willing to take a bet it's more Pomo-inclined artsy types.
It would probably be possible to check academics email signatures for data on this.
I work in software and have only seen one (this week so maybe she'd seen the 'pronouns day' mentioned somewhere) instance in a work context - and not from a coder.

It is not gaslighting to explain that someone is not comfortable with the gender society wants to force on them and wants to express themselves in a way that is comfortable for them.

When you imply that people should declare a pronoun in their bio/email sign off, as this BBC article does, you are asking them to emphasise the gender that society has forced on them; and you are enabling sexism by implying that the social construct of gender can be simply shrugged off.

It makes me very sad that an institution like the BBC can't see this.. I thought society had progressed further.

Please do not pretend that you are being kind by insisting that people choose a gender box.

In fact, pretending that they/them or ze/zer are not pronouns that are in fact used by people is the real gaslighting.

It really isn't. There are over a 100 different genders. It's really not 'gaslighting' to refuse to comply with using them all.

I'd be willing to take a bet it's more Pomo-inclined artsy types.

Privileged pomo-inclinded artsy types who can't imagine what its like to suffer real prejudice.

The zie/zer types of things don't really serve as pronouns, more like an awkward set of nicknames.
The whole point of pronouns is surely to make communication flow more easily. Non standard 'pronouns' do the opposite.

@Wizzybus

The comments here are just so saddening to me. It is not gaslighting to explain that someone is not comfortable with the gender society wants to force on them and wants to express themselves in a way that is comfortable for them. Not teaching your children about actual pronoun use is like teaching them to count but excluding the number 6 because you don't like it. It makes no sense. In fact, pretending that they/them or ze/zer are not pronouns that are in fact used by people is the real gaslighting.

I think a lot of people are unhappy with the gender society forces on them / me

I just don't see that changing pronouns will help, because the reason that gender is forced on me is my sex, that doesn't change and I don't believe that people will suddenly say " oh I know midge, yeah , I used to think of her as a woman and so was happy to talk over her in meetings, but now I know , because the pronouns zee uses that in fact I should not talk over zer. "

What most of us who object to gender being forced on us want is for people to throw the whole concept out of the window and treat people as people..so " oh midge, yeah, I don't talk over her because it's rude and anyway, she is really knowledgable in her field and well worth listening too"

I mean personally I am happy to be misgendered and called him , which happens in international collaborations that are often conducted via email only.

What I would not be happy with is for someone to say " ob midge is happy to be known as a he, so he should use the gents toilets " because I know that the men would not be happy, there would not be a san bin, and I don't want to see strange willies when going to the lol.

@HecatesCats

You are funny jj

Seriously, JJ1968 - stop embarrassing yourself here. Your staggering lack of knowledge is gobsmacking if you think most women don't mind men in womens spaces and only lobby for womens rights as some kind of spare time hobby. I would laugh if the stuff you are posting wasn't so pathetically inaccurate. You really are living in some male privelege bubble, aren't you eh?

It's more like saying "you must call six 'zip' and sixty 'zooie'. Six is real. Zip and zooie are made up.

Now that's what I call gaslighting.

@BernardBlackMissesLangCleg

The right not to be discriminated against in jobs housing and services based on our gender identity or presentation

everyone has this

right to adequate healthcare specific to trans needs

come on. this is definitely a thing

the right to be able to use spaces like toilets and changing rooms without risk of harassment or assault

you have this, everyone has this

the right to legal recognition of our gender

what the fuck does this mean? what do you want, a party?

the right to be safe in the streets and in the workplace etc etc

you have this. everyone has this

happy days JJ. all your wishes have been granted. now you can leave women alone

everyone has this

And yet trans people are still discriminated against in jobs, housing and services.

come on. this is definitely a thing

You think three year waiting lists are adequate?

you have this, everyone has this

And yet trans people still face harassment and assault from men

what the fuck does this mean? what do you want, a party?

More ID and birth certificates so trans people aren't accused of fraud every time they use a bank or locked up if they go through customs in some places

you have this. everyone has this

and yet trans people regularly face abuse and assault in the streets and in workplaces.

I'm all for non binary or trans people opting for they (singular) if that's what they (comfortable) feel happy with, I'm used to having non gendered language (Romance language omits the pronoun and goes straight to a third person verb) but inventing new ones... big eye roll.

Agree - at a certain point (I think after 'they') the word stops being a pronoun and just becomes a noun.

So how is that solved by removing women sex based rights?

Whats that got to do with us?

Most women's services were started by women who had nothing, and who put time and energy and resources they couldn't spare - but spared anyway - in order to help themselves and other women. Some of the early refuges were started in squats.

Stonewall - to take one example of a trans activism group - has reserves of about 5 million quid, an annual turnover of more than a million and a half quid, and something like 160 employees. Their CEO makes over £100k pa, and several more of their employees aren't far behind.

Can you imagine if Stonewall devoted a fraction of these considerable resources to campaigning for refuge provision for gender nonconforming men, instead of campaigning to steal women's refuges from the women that need them?

Such great points, ArcheryAnnie

Actually I do believe that transpeople May experience extra discrimination

I just don't think that the solution is to pretend that transwomen are actually women

The solution should be for appropriate adjustments and counterbalancing discriminations, like women have. And years ago I would have campaigned with them for that.

More ID and birth certificates so trans people aren't accused of fraud every time they use a bank or locked up if they go through customs in some places

Why not just ask why sex is relevant to opening a bank account?

Either sex is relevant and its just a simple objective fact that should be declared, or it isn't.

Plenty of people have different names on birth certificates - you just produce the relevant document that explains why your name is different.

@SophocIestheFox

“You lot” - is that not a sweeping generalisation and NITS...? It’s featured quite a lot here, as JJ tells us what “you lot” really think, and what “you lot” really want.

I’ll tell you what it’s definitely not, though, and that is the hallmark of a respectful, engaged debate.

You're quite correct I will avoid the term, especially as I've been treated so respectfully here.

It's just weird though you see, this is such a broad issue with so many different variables and offshoots and yet you all think exactly the same thing on every single angle of it. It's like listening to people read off a script sometimes. It's very peculiar and it sort of makes me think of 'you lot' as a bit of a hive mind. But I shall try and avoid it in future.

Yes, jj1968, all of those rights violations and many more are happening to other groups discriminated against on the basis of sex, religion/belief, sexuality, age, disability or race/ethnicity, too.

And yet proponents of self-id argue that other protected groups must give up their rights in order to redress the rights violations experienced by those who identify as trans - even though other disadvantaged groups are not responsible for those rights violations.

How do you justify that?

Yeah, we all think the exact same way

Some people think that trans people have all the rights they need in law, others don't
Some people think that being misgendered or abandoning gender pronouns is cool, others don't
Shall I carry on?

Or have you redefined the words "think the same way" like you want to redefine "woman" to mean the opposite ?

It's like listening to people read off a script sometimes. It's very peculiar and it sort of makes me think of 'you lot' as a bit of a hive mind. But I shall try and avoid it in future.

I read that to say "you guys ARE pretty shitty, but I'll try to avoid saying it" so still not a hallmark of a respectful, engaged debate.

@CaraDuneRedux

knights sadly at this point JJ will treat us all to a multiple page diatribe about how that poor be-penised person taking photos of [pronoun redacted] erect penis in the bathroom of a women's refuge for [pronoun redacted]'s own sexual gratification then of [pronoun redacted]'s own free will freely posting said image all over the internet for anyone to see - that person in jj's topsy turvy world is the victim here and women are the big evil meanies in this story for pointing out the fucking obvious, namely that this person is a pervert and probably a dangerous one at that.

Welcome to the upside down.

This just isn't true is it. My point was very clear that that person lived in a shelter for people with severe mental health problems, that there was no way of telling from a few tweets exactly what they had done, that sharing sexually intimate photos of them across the internet without their consent was out of order and quite possibly illegal depending on the country and that the women who ran that project had asked you to stop.

I also made it quite clear that if that person had done the things alleged then I hoped it was dealt with by the staff and they were kicked out and if necessary prosecuted.

And yet trans people are still discriminated against in jobs, housing and services.

Yes, so are women. The legal protection is exactly the same.

You think three year waiting lists are adequate?

No, but neither do I think long waiting lists in other healthcare areas are acceptable.

And yet trans people still face harassment and assault from men

And yet women face harassment and assault from male people, gender identity is irrelevant to it.

More ID and birth certificates so trans people aren't accused of fraud every time they use a bank or locked up if they go through customs in some places

You have the GRA.

and yet trans people regularly face abuse and assault in the streets and in workplaces.

And yet so do women.

This isn't a game of top trumps, jj. Some of our issues are similar, some different. You say you don't even present as a woman the majority of the time so you're not even being perceived as one. But women deserve privacy, dignity and comfort, and to have our feelings listened to and respected.

You need to advocate for third spaces, because a considerable number of women aren't putting themselves second to males this time.