BBC Bitsize - Pronouns

[OhHolyJesus]

I mean I'm not surprised but Bitesize is used by schools through the country as a supposed reliable, unbiased source of education material.

mobile.twitter.com/SafeSchools_UK/status/1319025713475952641?fbclid=IwAR0rTBD2j5PKOeTKvYSSX90c4RUDmJDo7Zg613qnDBXNaAncv3J8epYWLSQ

You can complain here:

www.bbc.co.uk/contact/complaints/make-a-complaint

Or email your MP and cc MPs Safe Schools Alliance on info@safeschoolsallianceuk.

In the tweet thread there are some people already complaining. I'm not a defund the BBC kind of person but I can see why license fee layers are questioning what the BBC are doing with their money (there is a website 'BBC complaints' that's all about biased Brexit coverage).

@testing987654321

Men's hostels and refuges won't let trans women in because they know they wouldn't be safe.

And this is women's problem because...

I know! And it isn't. Nothing to do with us.

They would be as safe as other males. I really don't see how identifying as a woman makes them less safe than eg gay men.

womyn born womyn

I want to laugh about this but it has so obviously been written from a place of contemp I can't.

So much fucking 'splaining on this thread and others. I think the "feminist" run through of the last 40 years in a couple of paragraphs was the nadir.

I suppose there's not much of an audience for the pub bore this year.

I want to laugh about this but it has so obviously been written from a place of contemp I can't.

I agree.

But the women working in the refuge sector have told you, over and over again, that trans inclusion is not a problem for the sector, funding cuts however are. No! That isn't true. As has been pointed out again and again.

The women, workers and clients, in hostels have been hard pressed to say anything. The management, fund raisers, political hacks have told us whatever the prevailing POV wants them to tell us!

Sector funding cuts have been made BECAUSE female only refuges are not inclusive enough! Putting the horse before the cart always helps!

If there was adequate funding that guaranteed every trans women facing domestic violence a safe space, away from men if necessary, then I couldn't give a shit if some refuges decide to be for womyn born womyn only,

If there is funding for all the men in need then you'll let women make a choice.

It's quite impressive how boldly you prioritise the needs of men over women.

You have said you are recognised as male, you use male facilities and you are concerned about men's needs.

Remind me why you think a feminist forum is interested in your thoughts?

If there was adequate funding that guaranteed every trans women facing domestic violence a safe space, away from men if necessary, then I couldn't give a shit if some refuges decide to be for womyn born womyn only, and the whys and wherefores of the every existence of women only spaces means fuck all, as usual!

The shame of it! To dismiss the struggle of suffragettes and feminists so bloody lightly! 100ish years... 100 fucking years! So little time yet such a big threat, yet so inconsequential, it seems!

And perhaps most pertinently of all, why is every single institution of the Patriarchy currently at war with trans people, and not just trans women, but trans men, non binary people, pronoun usage, all of it? You may not think trans people threaten the Patriarchy, but the Patriarchy itself clearly disagrees.

I'd also like to unpack this comment which I was so incredulous at that I only managed a flippant response earlier. The Patriarchy is the government, the police, the legal system. The media. Structures of power and authority. In what possible way are they unfavourable to trans people and favourable to women?

.... tries hard not to hold breath ...

And please stop with the rebranding of 'womyn' as 'women'. That was tried and found wanting. Language exists for accurate communication. 'Women' and 'transwomen' are the standard terms generally understood on this board.

jj1968:
You've been going at this what 4/5 years now? During that time we've had one of the most right wing Tory cabinets in living memory, Trump in the Whitehouse, Putin in the Kremlin, almost the entire national media on your side from Murdoch to the Morning Star, you've got billionaires, barristers and baronesses, admittedly mostly washed up celebrities galore, factions in all the main political parties, everyone from Evangelicals to militant trade unionists, a solid flow of cash and what's been achieved? The government recently announced they are making it easier to change your legal sex. If that's the best you can do with the wind in your sails then victory seems far from assured I'm afraid.

Also jj1968:
And perhaps most pertinently of all, why is every single institution of the Patriarchy currently at war with trans people, and not just trans women, but trans men, non binary people, pronoun usage, all of it? You may not think trans people threaten the Patriarchy, but the Patriarchy itself clearly disagrees.

You seem a little confused jj. Or are there two of you?

So refuges set up exclusively by women who saw the need and took action, for other women, fundraising by women, organisation by women, created out of the blood and swear and tears of women, are to be graciously permitted (by JJ) to admit some women in crisis.

But only after all the worried transwomen have been made comfy and safe. Riiiiiiight.

Nice of you to be so generous with a facility that isn't yours, that you haven't lifted a finger to support and probably don't intend to.

"Oy, women over there! That facility you've brought into existence out of nothing by your own efforts. We'll have that. Hand it over! We can't be bothered to do all that work - it's easier just to take yours."

Five minutes ago it was womxn. 🙄

We have natal women, womyn born womyn, cis women, biological women, menstruators, chest feeders, cervix havers and, er, birthing people.

The desperation to not say what we are.

Woman.

Interestingly, I haven't heard menopausal women reduced to a description. Although I strongly suspect it's because they just get forgotten about altogether...

Oy, women over there! That facility you've brought into existence out of nothing by your own efforts. We'll have that. Hand it over! We can't be bothered to do all that work - it's easier just to take yours

Its most bizarre that no one thought to set up their own refuge... almost as if its not really about fulfilling a need or ensuring safety.
.whats it about I wonder 🤔

Its a source of joy on twitter when funding is removed or things get shut down.

Its a source of joy on twitter when things are designated mixed instead of single sex. Bizarre really as wont those men who beat them up still be there?

The only thing that provokes rage is when they are told no. By women.

So much insight available on this thread, for lurkers.

@OldCrone

jj1968: You've been going at this what 4/5 years now? During that time we've had one of the most right wing Tory cabinets in living memory, Trump in the Whitehouse, Putin in the Kremlin, almost the entire national media on your side from Murdoch to the Morning Star, you've got billionaires, barristers and baronesses, admittedly mostly washed up celebrities galore, factions in all the main political parties, everyone from Evangelicals to militant trade unionists, a solid flow of cash and what's been achieved? The government recently announced they are making it easier to change your legal sex. If that's the best you can do with the wind in your sails then victory seems far from assured I'm afraid.

Also jj1968:
And perhaps most pertinently of all, why is every single institution of the Patriarchy currently at war with trans people, and not just trans women, but trans men, non binary people, pronoun usage, all of it? You may not think trans people threaten the Patriarchy, but the Patriarchy itself clearly disagrees.

You seem a little confused jj. Or are there two of you?

It's par for the course. JJ contradicts themself sometimes within the same post

May I just mention that the Morning Star printed one cartoon, sacked the cartoonist in response to complaints and then outright grovelled about having printed it.

Months later, they're still being maligned as transphobic.

Honestly, the 'might as well be hanged for a sheep as for a lamb' saying comes to mind.

why is every single institution of the Patriarchy currently at war with trans people

Not that I've seen. The majority seem at present to bend over backwards to placate trans people and attend to their grievances, and demand (often with menaces of one sort and another) that all women must at all times do the same.

The real question is, of what do you think this "war" consists? Actual harm -- lower wages, for instance, and reports of crime against them being ignored? Or failing to pander to someone's every stray feeling?

But as we have seen, the chance of a woman being assaulted by a trans woman, or a man pretending to be a trans women, in women's spaces is millions to one.

I haven't actually seen that. Can you give a link to the data, please?

The rate of violent crime, including rape, committed by trans women (where is still recorded as being by trans women and not women, which is in itself a scandal but not relevant here) is the same as the rate for similar crime committed by heterosexual normative men. There is no reason to think that this will be altered by the realisation "oh, no, I mustn't attack this woman I have got on her own -- we're in a women-only public lavatory, it would be wrong", is there.

Men's hostels and refuges won't let trans women in because they know they wouldn't be safe.

This is a problem of male violence, not female violence. Take it up on men's discussion boards, where men talk with men; it really isn't needed here, where in that respect you are definitely preaching to the choir.

@midgebabe

Any humiliation that a transwoman feels using Male facilities is relevant, but the humiliation women face being forced to share spaces with male bodied people is not relevant?

See the equivalence of everything you write .

If transwomen are not comfortable with males and male spaces, neither are women

Transwomen are males, not females

It's pure Male priveledge if the transwomen is prioritised over women

Is there not a difference in a woman coming across a trans women in the toilets about once a year or so and trans women having to share intimate spaces which aren't designed for trans women with lots of men every single day? In terms of balancing risk at least, if you acknowledge trans women are at risk of sexual and other forms of violence from men then from a purely neutral amd analytical perspective then trans inclusion is surely the lesser risk if you wanted to minimise overall assaults. Under your system a trans women facing violence at some point in her life in a men's space seems virtually assured, whereas the chance of a woman facing violence in a women's space due to trans inclusion is millions to one.

Male on male violence isn't women's problem to deal with. Sort it out.

For the second time it is not only about balancing risks. It's about women's privacy, dignity, boundaries, consent and comfort. This is a thread about pronouns, which is about personal feelings and validation of your gender identity. Women also have feelings. These deserve to be respected.

You need also to consider the trauma to a woman who has been so abused by a man that she's had to run away from him with only what she stood up in, and then has to live in the same shared space as what she is aware is a person with male genitals and voice, every single day. and try to get to sleep at night knowing that a person in the same class as the one who so abused her is in the same building as she is.

These actual people, who happen top be women, do need the same consideration as your hypothetical trans woman, don't they? Or do they not exist, or if they do exist not matter in the slightest?

Is there not a difference in a woman coming across a trans women in the toilets about once a year or so and trans women having to share intimate spaces which aren't designed for trans women with lots of men every single day? In terms of balancing risk at least, if you acknowledge trans women are at risk of sexual and other forms of violence

Yes male violence is a huge problem. Take that up with the men. Women's spaces are for women, not for women and men who are more likely to incur male abuse for whatever reason.

Transwomen should use the spaces for their sex, or campaign for their own spaces.

You don't see us as human, do you JJ?

@OldCrone

Was getting the shit beaten out of me virtually everyday of my school life for being feminine to the point where I was an alcoholic at 14 and on the streets by 18 not enough for you?

Who beat the shit out of you? Were they male or female?

My presentation is androgynous and somewhat changeable. I usually use male spaces. Most people use male pronouns for me.

So why do you have a problem with what people on here are saying? The only thing I'd take issue with is that you should always use male spaces because you are male.

I don't really care but my experience is very different to that of a trans woman who lives that way all the time and who may have had medical procedures that mean in a lot of cases using male spaces is not just dangerous but massively impractical and potentially humiliating.

So you're making assumptions about how a different group of people feel. Yet you can't extend your empathy to women who might feel threatened or humiliated by the presence of someone obviously male in what should be a female-only space. Why is that?

Who beat the shit out of you? Were they male or female?

Both in some cases, although the bullying from girls was mostly verbal.

So you're making assumptions about how a different group of people feel. Yet you can't extend your empathy to women who might feel threatened or humiliated by the presence of someone obviously male in what should be a female-only space. Why is that?

Well I've been dragged into the women's toilets by non trans women friends enough times to know that the feeling of threat or humiliation is far from universal. And I do empathise, and by and large I use men's spaces unless I'm at a queer type event or something where no-one really gives a shit. But that's because I present as male. I have yet to see any evidence that trans women in women's toilets or changing rooms are a threat, or indeed that most women even care. So again it's a balance, should trans women risk sexual assault and violence and use spaces which are not designed for them to protect a very small percentage of women from feeling uncomfortable. I'm not sure that's so fair personally. I'd like to see proper secure spaces, enclosed toilets with sinks for example, that everyone can use, much like you often see in Europe and which are actually becoming pretty common in smaller venues in the UK.