BBC Bitsize - Pronouns

[OhHolyJesus]

I mean I'm not surprised but Bitesize is used by schools through the country as a supposed reliable, unbiased source of education material.

mobile.twitter.com/SafeSchools_UK/status/1319025713475952641?fbclid=IwAR0rTBD2j5PKOeTKvYSSX90c4RUDmJDo7Zg613qnDBXNaAncv3J8epYWLSQ

You can complain here:

www.bbc.co.uk/contact/complaints/make-a-complaint

Or email your MP and cc MPs Safe Schools Alliance on info@safeschoolsallianceuk.

In the tweet thread there are some people already complaining. I'm not a defund the BBC kind of person but I can see why license fee layers are questioning what the BBC are doing with their money (there is a website 'BBC complaints' that's all about biased Brexit coverage).

And what do you expect trans people to do? You think a trans women should stay with a violent partner rather than escape to a refuge to make a political point? You think trans women should risk violence marching into a pub toilets full of lairy drunk blokes? Or risk sexual violence walking into a quiet men's toilets in an empty bus station at 1am? Trans people didn't create this society that hates us so much. But you want us to literally risk our lives in case a non trans woman feels slightly uncomfortable being in a changing room cubicle next to us?

Campaign for additional safe unisex spaces, instead of campaigning for self ID which means that the ‘lairy blokes’ you describe can enter any space.

Stop attacking people who simply want to protect the rights they need because they have a completely different protected characteristic.

You think a trans women should stay with a violent partner rather than escape to a refuge to make a political point?

No, trans people should either advocate for trans support systems or use the ones for their biological sex.

Women's refuges are for women, who research has consistently found value female only space to recover from abuse and sexual violence. There are hard cases where older male children aren't allowed. That is difficult. This does not mean they should not be single sex.

@EvenSupposing

And what do you expect trans people to do? You think a trans women should stay with a violent partner rather than escape to a refuge to make a political point? You think trans women should risk violence marching into a pub toilets full of lairy drunk blokes? Or risk sexual violence walking into a quiet men's toilets in an empty bus station at 1am? Trans people didn't create this society that hates us so much. But you want us to literally risk our lives in case a non trans woman feels slightly uncomfortable being in a changing room cubicle next to us?

How uncomfortable do you think the women Karen White sexually assaulted in prison felt?

Is it
a. slightly or
b.really very or
c.these arguments only work if you entirely forget the violence women face from men, all men, and totally centre men in your thinking. We do neither on FWR so these arguments don't work here. Feel free to campaign for third spaces.

And Karen White is why I support checks and balances and some degree of compromise, including the single sex exemption in some circumstances.

But as we have seen, the chance of a woman being assaulted by a trans woman, or a man pretending to be a trans women, in women's spaces is millions to one. I was sexually harassed several times, flashed at and even followed home after using men's toilets just as an androgynous femme presenting teenager. If it simply comes down to a balancing of risks then I'd argue that supports trans inclusion.

I'd rather campaign for safe and secure facilities for everyone. We're so used to the politics of scarcity that we forget almost all of the problems could be solved with adequate funding. I would love to see trans people and GC people come together and fight for that.

Jj, all those things that you list transwomen having issues with are to do with male violence.

You are talking about men being violent to men.

Why are you berating women for this? I am here to talk to women about women's issues. You are here to derail every discussion you get involved in.

Why don't you take your arguments to the men?

If it simply comes down to a balancing of risks then I'd argue that supports trans inclusion.

It doesn't simply come down to a balancing of risks. It's also about the privacy and dignity of women, and respect for us.

Was getting the shit beaten out of me virtually everyday of my school life for being feminine to the point where I was an alcoholic at 14

A lot of men get the shit kicked out of them (and worse) by other men for a lot of reasons. Unfortunately that is a problem that women cannot solve.

I was sexually harassed several times, flashed at and even followed home after using men's toilets

Which is exactly why women are entitled to spaces free from men - even when those men identify as women. There is no way for a woman to tell if the man in the toilets is dangerous or not, hence why all men are excluded.

Transpeople need to campaign for trans specific spaces as women and disabled people had to.

None of this is to do with women. Stop thinking it is. Campaign for your own stuff, trailblaze for you own cause, just like everyone else.

None of this is women's remit. Stop imagining it is. This isn't anything to do with women, it's not for us to sort out, it's not for us to validate.

Any humiliation that a transwoman feels using Male facilities is relevant, but the humiliation women face being forced to share spaces with male bodied people is not relevant?

See the equivalence of everything you write .

If transwomen are not comfortable with males and male spaces, neither are women

Transwomen are males, not females

It's pure Male priveledge if the transwomen is prioritised over women

It is pure male privilege that we are expected to put male feelings ahead of our own. No one, including many women, even questions it.

And what do you expect trans people to do? I expect them to stop and consider the realities of life. Not one of the horrible things you describe have not happened to women, caused by men. Look to men to stop that behaviour. Include all transwomen... they too should stop pushing themselves into female spaces where they undoubtedly cause issues by mere dint of their male bodied presence.

And before you remonstrate, men can decide how they want to address transmen. That is not for women to decide. And yes, I do know a transman, have done for almost 30 years, through all of his surgeries. He married my ex boss last year. He has had a GRC for a very long time. I call him He as that is how he lives, presents and has a legal bit of paper saying that he is, for legal purposes, male. But he knows he is genetically female. He makes no bones about that! Never has. And yes, I have posted about him before, in case you think I am making it up!

He uses male facilities. Men choose not to make an issue over it. We have discussed this, in light of the recent TRA actions (which horrify him). He can see the backlash and having to rethink how he lives his public life. He can't use female facilities, he looks far too male for that. But if men chose to say no, as women are now doing, he would make adjustments - discussing separate unisex loos at work for example (civil service, this could be done quite easily). But he wouldn't insist he is male if just one man found that too challenging. Indeed the current TRA actions have made him extremely uncomfortable using male facilities and he may have that discussion once the offices are open again.

He know he is ananomaly. He doesn't like it, it reminds him he isn't universally accepted as he presents But ALL of that was his choice!

@Ereshkigalangcleg

You think a trans women should stay with a violent partner rather than escape to a refuge to make a political point?

No, trans people should either advocate for trans support systems or use the ones for their biological sex.

Women's refuges are for women, who research has consistently found value female only space to recover from abuse and sexual violence. There are hard cases where older male children aren't allowed. That is difficult. This does not mean they should not be single sex.

Men's hostels and refuges won't let trans women in because they know they wouldn't be safe. And trans women also sometimes need space away from men.

I'm talking about a trans women facing violence tonight, in the here and now. What she should so, start a campaign?

If there was adequate funding that guaranteed every trans women facing domestic violence a safe space, away from men if necessary, then I couldn't give a shit if some refuges decide to be for womyn born womyn only, although what plans they have to police that is somewhat baffling to me. Most refuges are not one big shared communal house anymore anyway. But the women working in the refuge sector have told you, over and over again, that trans inclusion is not a problem for the sector, funding cuts however are.

People consistently go on and on about trans people's feelings and how they don't feel validated and how terrible that is, and completely forget that women are people with feelings too. And it hurts me to see how misogynistic our society is, that my feelings count for zero.

Women aren't responsible for sorting out male violence against other men.

Women have had to fight for single-sex facilities, for our own privacy, dignity and safety. They're not just the 'not-men's', meant for men who can't use the men's room.

Well if you had spent less time campaigning to take over women's spaces, you might have your own spaces by now

And trans women also sometimes need space away from men.

Yes. So do women.

And Karen White is why I support checks and balances and some degree of compromise, including the single sex exemption in some circumstances

Except in the last thread you prioritised a clearly dangerous sexual predator iver the women in the shelter. So my confidence in checks and balances that serve only to grant some males access to places they have no place being is non existent.

Where does the funding fir all these extra staff and safety features come from when there's not enough to even help the actual women?

Let's face it the TRAs wasted all their time and energy campaigning fir the right to infiltrate every last space on earth that men were banned from when they could have put it into setting up their own services. Ajd now you expect women to sort it out.

No.

Was getting the shit beaten out of me virtually everyday of my school life for being feminine to the point where I was an alcoholic at 14 and on the streets by 18 not enough for you?

Who beat the shit out of you? Were they male or female?

My presentation is androgynous and somewhat changeable. I usually use male spaces. Most people use male pronouns for me.

So why do you have a problem with what people on here are saying? The only thing I'd take issue with is that you should always use male spaces because you are male.

I don't really care but my experience is very different to that of a trans woman who lives that way all the time and who may have had medical procedures that mean in a lot of cases using male spaces is not just dangerous but massively impractical and potentially humiliating.

So you're making assumptions about how a different group of people feel. Yet you can't extend your empathy to women who might feel threatened or humiliated by the presence of someone obviously male in what should be a female-only space. Why is that?

Yet you can't extend your empathy to women who might feel threatened or humiliated by the presence of someone obviously male in what should be a female-only space. Why is that?

Why indeed.

Men's hostels and refuges won't let trans women in because they know they wouldn't be safe. And trans women also sometimes need space away from men

And women need spaces away from men...

Men's hostels and refuges won't let trans women in because they know they wouldn't be safe.

And this is women's problem because...

EdgeofaCoin yes, that's exactly where I'm at. I was raised to be respectful. I was also taught that respect must be given freely, and that one has no right to demand or expect it if one's own behaviour disrespects others. But above all I was taught that I had to respect my own boundaries if I wanted others to respect them.

And that is what I'm doing by saying no to this ideology with all of its facets.

Not one of the horrible things you describe have not happened to women, caused by men.

My best friend was 18 when she left her violent boyfriend (who she was living with at the time) on the night he tried to kill her. She ran out of the flat with just the clothes she was wearing. The next day she went to the police station, explained what had happened, and asked if an officer could come with her to the flat so she could get her belongings. She was told by the male police officer "we're not a taxi service love" and sent on her way. You could still see the finger marks around her neck where he tried to strangle her. She never went back to that flat. I think men don't realise (or want to realise) how commonplace violence towards women, from men, is and how little it is taken seriously.

Women deserve to have spaces that are completely free from men.

Course you should start a campaign JJ.

When you are happy to tell any woman that they have 'sexually humiliated' a violent predator, by warning other women of his presence, you don't get to decide who does and doesn't go into women's spaces.

Your criteria for a transwoman being 'sexually humiliated' is that other women have reported them being predatory and violent in a women's shelter!

You're the last person to decide on what basis male born individuals should be accessing female spaces.

It's women's decision. And the answer is none.