BBC Bitsize - Pronouns

[OhHolyJesus]

I mean I'm not surprised but Bitesize is used by schools through the country as a supposed reliable, unbiased source of education material.

mobile.twitter.com/SafeSchools_UK/status/1319025713475952641?fbclid=IwAR0rTBD2j5PKOeTKvYSSX90c4RUDmJDo7Zg613qnDBXNaAncv3J8epYWLSQ

You can complain here:

www.bbc.co.uk/contact/complaints/make-a-complaint

Or email your MP and cc MPs Safe Schools Alliance on info@safeschoolsallianceuk.

In the tweet thread there are some people already complaining. I'm not a defund the BBC kind of person but I can see why license fee layers are questioning what the BBC are doing with their money (there is a website 'BBC complaints' that's all about biased Brexit coverage).

Just catching up.

So JJ thinks if a 14yo child goes missing, who 'presents' as a girl, and is female. If they had a trans ID. The missing kid thing should say to look for a boy?

Not read all the posts but think that's the gist?

Also the idea that she/he has always been based on 'gender' is patent bollocks.

Also that women have been called names that aren't their names for donkeys years and have made a bit of progress but still get caught. When was it women were allowed to get mortgages again? The 70s I think...

With boats and that I think it's a protective thing. Like mother earth.

She looks after you.

That's gender, obv.

We do these things, and correct ourselves when we're wrong, not only to be polite. We do so because it's the truth, and we are correcting ourselves if we make a mistake
Whereas in the trans demands it's the other way around. We are using the correct vocabulary and being told to lie instead. That's actually quite rude.

The correct vocabulary is in a constant state of flux. Times change, so does language.

But biology doesn't. It's still truthful to refer to a male as he/him. Even if he and thinks he is a woman. That won't change for the foreseeable future. And language needs to stay in synch with biology otherwise we find ourselves in one huge muddle, unable to communicate effectively or succinctly or clearly. Who wants that?

This is one of the things which confuses me about languages which have genders for all nouns. I was going by what I found on this page (but obviously input from a native or fluent speaker would be better). But there is a bit of discussion about whether 'es' or 'sie' is correct even there (the consensus seemed to be that 'es' was grammatically correct).

Es is grammatically correct but people would still refer to a girl, both in writing and in speech, as "sie", because they know she's a girl. As in "oh your little (Maedchen) is so cute! What's her name?*
"Little girl would be in grammatically neutral language, but in direct reference, it's she!

But even where it doesn't, like with the example of Mädchen for girl mentioned above by OldCrone which has as a Genus Neutrum (neuter) even though the Sexus of a girl is female, where the referrent (the actual girl) is known, named or visible, it is actually much more common to use the ungrammatical she and all declined forms thereof even though das Mädchen requires es.

And, as ever, CharlieParley explains it far more clearly and scientifically than I can.

In Old English (spoken by the Anglo-Saxons) the word 'ship' was neuter. I'm fairly sure it would have been the same in Old Norse (spoken by Vikings) as well. I'm not sure when or why ships began to be referred to as 'she' but it doesn't appear to be a linguistic hangover.

As in German, the Old English word for 'girl' was originally neuter. However, by the late Old English period people had started to use it in a feminine form.

jj I can actually take on board your point about not expecting transpeople to be trailblazers. I can understand the desire to conform to certain behaviours and dress-styles that are more acceptable when exhibited by one sex than another. I understand that it is easier to present as the opposite sex than to try to overturn thousands of years of social conditioning. I get it, and if someone wants to transition socially then I don't have a big problem with that. I mean, I don't think it helps break down gender stereotyping in the way that you think it does, but I don't think playboy models or rap stars tend to help with breaking down stereotypes either.

My issue comes with having to believe that male-born people are women. That they have the right to access women's refuges because they are women. That women must give up the word 'woman'. That women have no right to male-free changing spaces or to participate in sports reserved for female-bodied people.

This is why women are so angry about all of this.

Politeness is one thing. In the past I have always tried to be polite. I have looked someone in the eye who had five o'clock shadow on their face and called that person Judith. I used 'she' and 'her' when referring to Judith when Judith wasn't present. The problem is, at no point did I ever believe that Judith was actually female: it was always just a matter of courtesy.

Perhaps that was a disservice. Perhaps I gave Judith the false impression that I truly did believe Judith was a woman. Maybe this is why the trans community is so hurt and outraged by women standing up for their rights now - because everyone was willing to distort reality to a certain extent for so long to try to make the transgender community feel better about themselves.

However, it seems that many members of the transgender community don't realise that for most people this use of language is an attempt to be kind. Some members of the transgender community also don't realise that most people, in their heart of hearts, don't actually believe that transwomen are women. When they realise the truth, it is a shock.

If TRAs had stuck to toilets and a request for certain pronouns to be used as a matter of courtesy, and if TRAs had not tried to encroach on language, sport, prisons, rape crisis centres and everything else, most women would have continued to go along with that. We wouldn't be where we are now. And I would still be referring to Judith in this post as 'she'.

@NiceGerbil

Just catching up.

So JJ thinks if a 14yo child goes missing, who 'presents' as a girl, and is female. If they had a trans ID. The missing kid thing should say to look for a boy?

Not read all the posts but think that's the gist?

Also the idea that she/he has always been based on 'gender' is patent bollocks.

Also that women have been called names that aren't their names for donkeys years and have made a bit of progress but still get caught. When was it women were allowed to get mortgages again? The 70s I think...

That happened quite recently - a teenage girl went missing who identified as male. Initially, people were asked to look out for a slightly built boy who, looking at photos, was obviously a girl.

Thankfully she was found but I think honouring her pronouns didn't help in that. We all know girls are at much greater risk of male violence. And, as that poor young woman who identified as trans who was raped found, sex offenders don't care how you identify. You can't identify out of sex, however much you may want to.

If a straight man sexually harasses or assaults a trans woman is it on the basis of her sex or gender? If a straight man chats up a trans woman is it on the basis of her sex of gender. If a man beats up a trans woman is it on the basis of her sex or gender? When men straight men uses a trans sex worker is it on the basis of their sex of gender? Are trans people much more over represented in sex work than men because of sex or gender?

You do realise most of these instances is about sexuality and not gender. And if a man is lying to themselves that they are heterosexual when they are not, it again has nothing to do with gender. Except they might use ‘gender’ as a way to disguise their own homophobia.

Really, this is just as incorrect as your assertion that language has been gendered and not sex based.

Trans people have to find a way to muddle through.

And so why do women and children have to bear the brunt of transpeople finding their way to muddle through.

The correct vocabulary is in a constant state of flux. Times change, so does language.

Yet sex remains immutable!

Surely it is a discussion about developed/augmented breast tissue being on show because of the sexual aspect (hence, the exception is breastfeeding an infant). Not about which ‘gender’ the person is identifying.

Again, another poor example.

I don’t believe that any person should be in a public place unless they are swimming or in a place where swimming is done without their torso covered adequately. If they are in a private venue, whatever they wish to show is their choice.

How? It's all navel gazing luxury beliefs, from where I'm standing.

Absolutely.

This is challenging gender:

first100years.org.uk/a-woman-is-not-a-person-a-review-of-bebb-v-the-law-society-1914/

The 2020 concept of gender identity just forces people into boxes.

jj I can actually take on board your point about not expecting transpeople to be trailblazers.

I disagree. Just to take one example, it really isn't easy to be a woman and be the first person in your office to say that you need somewhere to express and store milk at work, but if you want to work and breastfeed your child you just have to get on and do it. There are hundreds of examples of things that women have had to do to fight for their rights that are at best awkward and at worst humiliating or dangerous.

There are also plenty of examples of trailblazers in other groups of people with protected characteristics.

There are also plenty of examples of trailblazers in other groups of people with protected characteristics.

Was watching ‘hidden figures’ last night about ferociously intelligent black women who contributed to space flight. Each one of them had to be a trailblazer.

@Ereshkigalangcleg

Many young people I come across are more sexist and stereotype-obsessed than people my own age (late gen X). So not sure how this amazing paradigm shift is going to occur.

I think there's a certain amount of rose tinted spectacles going on here. As a fellow Gen Xer, in the 80s Benny Hill chasing women round in their underwear was prime time entertainment. If you look at a lot of mainstream culture from that time it's horrifying misogynist and wouldn't be produced today. Women were still excluded, legally in some cases, from certain jobs, marital rape was not a crime, and it was quite common in male dominated workplaces for the walls to be adorned with Page 3 clippings and sexual harassment was largely tolerated in many workplaces and other environments.

Things did progress throughout the 90s I think, but it was still the era of lad's mags and girl power. The rave and other music scenes were almost entirely dominated by men, female rappers and DJs were novelties, and in the midst of the decadence of the time sexual abuse and harrassment was routinely normalised or covered up. There were far fewer female MPs than today, very few women working in STEM industries and the pay gap was much higher and barely discussed.

I'm not necessarily saying things have got better, but I think the way gender manifests has changed, and seems much more rooted in consumer choices and appearances rather than structural barriers, perhaps reflecting the legacy of girl power. I think the rise of ubiquitous porn and the internet has brought new forms of misogyny into play, or perhaps more correctly excerbated existing forms, and in some ways gendered consumer experieces have become virtual parodies, I'm thinking of all the ridiculously over the top girly nail bars that are sprnging up and butch male barbers with replica guns and motobikes in the windows. But I don't think you can really say things have got worse, just that the nature of the oppression has changed.

I think there's a lot of generational bashing going on in this debate, in both directions, that doesn't really help anyone.

@jj1968

I think there's a lot of generational bashing going on in this debate, in both directions, that doesn't really help anyone.

You're the one claiming you speak for young people. 'Young feminists' mostly.

It's forced teaming and it's really obvious and a sad attempt at making your arguments seem progressive.

I think there might be a difference between recognising shifting priorities and analysis over time and going on about how all young feminists today are woke idiots or all boomer feminists are out of touch bigots.

@jj1968

I think there might be a difference between recognising shifting priorities and analysis over time and going on about how all young feminists today are woke idiots or all boomer feminists are out of touch bigots.

Great. Well will you stop doing that then? In particular the old - 'when I talk to my cool young feminist friends about MN they all roll their eyes at the thought of how old and white and middle class everyone is there and then sing 'You're in with the in crowd' to me'. That could do with a tune up.

As a fellow Gen Xer, in the 80s Benny Hill chasing women round in their underwear was prime time entertainment.

Except that Gen Xers were actually watching French & Saunders and Saturday Live.

Of course it wasn't perfect, but we at least thought things were getting better. We didn't think they would regress.

'Girl power' was a promotional slogan for the Spice Girls that had very little meaning.

@OldCrone

in some ways gendered consumer experieces have become virtual parodies, I'm thinking of all the ridiculously over the top girly nail bars that are sprnging up and butch male barbers with replica guns and motobikes in the windows. But I don't think you can really say things have got worse, just that the nature of the oppression has changed.

And every time a man declares he is a woman because he likes 'feminine' things, every time a woman declares she is a man because she likes 'masculine' things, the range of acceptable behaviour for each sex becomes narrower and more polarised.

Why don't you want to be a trailblazer jj? Why don't you want to stand up and proudly declare that you are a man being yourself? Why is your aim to colonise women's spaces and experiences when you don't belong there? That's not easy either, and if you took the other option you'd have many of us standing beside you and fighting for your rights to be as gender non-conforming as you want.

Was getting the shit beaten out of me virtually everyday of my school life for being feminine to the point where I was an alcoholic at 14 and on the streets by 18 not enough for you?

And the question I would ask was is if I'm so gender conforming then why did this happen? Why do trans people face violence harassment and abuse? Why do trans people lose friendss and family when they come out? Why are trans people discriminated against in employment and housing? Why are trans people imprisoned or murdered, sometimes by the state in some countries, when all trans people are doing is reinforcing the gender binary?

And what do you expect trans people to do? You think a trans women should stay with a violent partner rather than escape to a refuge to make a political point? You think trans women should risk violence marching into a pub toilets full of lairy drunk blokes? Or risk sexual violence walking into a quiet men's toilets in an empty bus station at 1am? Trans people didn't create this society that hates us so much. But you want us to literally risk our lives in case a non trans woman feels slightly uncomfortable being in a changing room cubicle next to us?

And as it happens I've explained my gender. My presentation is androgynous and somewhat changeable. I usually use male spaces. Most people use male pronouns for me. I don't really care but my experience is very different to that of a trans woman who lives that way all the time and who may have had medical procedures that mean in a lot of cases using male spaces is not just dangerous but massively impractical and potentially humiliating.

And what do you expect trans people to do? You think a trans women should stay with a violent partner rather than escape to a refuge to make a political point? You think trans women should risk violence marching into a pub toilets full of lairy drunk blokes? Or risk sexual violence walking into a quiet men's toilets in an empty bus station at 1am? Trans people didn't create this society that hates us so much. But you want us to literally risk our lives in case a non trans woman feels slightly uncomfortable being in a changing room cubicle next to us?

How uncomfortable do you think the women Karen White sexually assaulted in prison felt?

Is it
a. slightly or
b.really very or
c.these arguments only work if you entirely forget the violence women face from men, all men, and totally centre men in your thinking. We do neither on FWR so these arguments don't work here. Feel free to campaign for third spaces.

And perhaps most pertinently of all, why is every single institution of the Patriarchy currently at war with trans people, and not just trans women, but trans men, non binary people, pronoun usage, all of it? You may not think trans people threaten the Patriarchy, but the Patriarchy itself clearly disagrees.

I'm sorry, do you live in a parallel universe?