Do any of you dress etc 'gender free' or have tried to in the past?

[SoulofanAggron]

I'm going a bit more 'gender free' in my look. Did try it once years ago for a couple of years. Have any of you tried it/done it?

I know a lot of women have quite a 'gender free' look anyway.

*pink skirt

One or two posts ( myself included ) were a little scathing...a sort of eye roll, of course you can wear what you like, what has gender got to do with it?

clothes should not be read by others as a signal of your gender conformity , ( or mental and physical capabilities or sexual availability for that matter ) but they are . They do affect how people treat you.

And if you find that uncomfortable you may want to think about how much you are happy to b part of that gender repression

And people who have understood this for a while should be supportive not scathing to someone who is thinking things through for themselves

I'm none the wiser what point you are trying to make.

Who is "you"?

You is a generic anyone , anyone reading

Thanks. Still not getting your point or what you (individual) are expecting you (general) to do.

As I said, I think some people, ,self included, were dismissive or jokey rather than being a little more positive and supportive .

Someone wants to change something about themselves , and in my opinion, she is thinking about things that need thinking about. The use of gender to suppress women and the role of clothing in that.

many of us have already broken free from a need to conform, to dress as expected, to dress in a way that helps other people maintain their stereotypes. Many may choose to wear something feminine, but with a consciousness that those choices can be damaging ( perpetuating a patria4chical society as well as physically damaging ) , constraining or overly sexualised. Once you are aware of the various pressures on you, and how they may make you think and feel, then you are acting more as your own agent and less as a pawn .

Thank you. That is clearer. I agree there were some really snippy responses to the OP.

Many may choose to wear something feminine, but with a consciousness that those choices can be damaging ( perpetuating a patria4chical society as well as physically damaging ) , constraining or overly sexualised. Once you are aware of the various pressures on you, and how they may make you think and feel, then you are acting more as your own agent and less as a pawn

I will wear what I want to wear. I have no interest in being lectured at and patronised by feminists wanting to police what I wear.

Many may choose to wear something feminine, but with a consciousness that those choices can be damaging

Um no, whilst I'm not a particularly feminine dresser, I will wear what I want to wear with out feeling guilty or overthinking it, you are pandering to the patriarchy by letting them think men can influence what you wear. Clothes are just clothes. I also would not judge another woman, however she dresses.

Yes wear what you want to wear..there at no rights or wrongs. There is no feminist clothing uniform. You don't have to wear or not wear anything to be concerned for women's rights

Believe what you want to believe
I will continue to think that people who do not see how clothing can be used against women or to limit women , to reenforce harmful stereotypes, are misguided or narrow minded

@SoulofanAggron

Well some of us can't look 'gender free' without seriously distorting our bodies or moving from a location that is too hot to conceal a markedly female body shape.

@FireUnderTheHand That's sex, not gender. Gender would be if you wore something to emphasise it more than is necessary/inevitable. Your hairdresser I'd guess is a gay man? Unfortunately some of them are funny about women.

While I am happy to be female I reject gender and all of its nasty indications so endeavoring to be gender-free is just another label in the gender sphere signaling buying into gender and the trappings thereof.

It's the opposite, it's, as you say you mostly do, opting out of the whole thing. Refusing to buy in to gender.

@midgebabe Glad you get the idea.

Well, not all the stuff has come yet but already had comments from my bestie (ex partner.) 'What are you wearing?' And 'your pink is on the radiator in the front room.'

I suppose after a few days he'll get used to it.

Firstly, I get where you are coming from... but I was earnestly attempting to exist 'gender-free' from the womb to around 25yrs old. This isn't new to me or novel or groundbreaking or shocking or otherwise. From getting grounded for playing outside with my friends shirtless at 5yrs old (gender based) to being told at 12yrs old by my math teacher that it was my responsibility to help the boys in the class that were poor at math not because I was good at math but because I was a girl and that is what we (girls) are supposed to do (gender based) to being told at 16yrs old that I dressed like a 'boy' (gender based)... I could give a litany of examples. All of that gender based bullshit comes from being female in the society in which I live, it is tied to my sex as an unnatural force beyond my control.

My point was that some of us no matter what we do will always be seen as she/her and associated with the societal trappings thereof (gender) because our bodies (sex) give us away. Personally I don't care what people call me when they aren't speaking to me - I've been called every name in the book and the majority of it is tied to the fact that I am a woman that dares not behave in a gender-constrained way. I do not play into the gender tropes of being meek or quiet, there is a reason I am often told that I have a 'masculine' personality and it is because I am a woman that is confident and assertive... to those encountering me I am a feminine looking (because body, long hair, feminine face) and masculine acting (personality and how I assert myself) but am pigeonholed by society into the trappings of gender. I can't tell you how many times I have been told to be 'ladylike' (gender based) because I am a female and my unladylike behavior (read: confidence etc) makes some people very uncomfortable.

Society determines gender constraints and I have rejected them my entire life - mostly because I grew up being told that I should flaunt it 'cause I got it' and that it would attract a man of means.

In regards to my hairstylist/colorist he is gay but I can't comment on whether he is funny about women. I know his comments to me were uh... undulating between wokery and lucidity but beyond that I don't know him well.

She/her and femininity are inextricably associated with the human female sex. Who determines what is more than necessary/inevitable in regards to the emphasizing of sexed bodies through clothing choices? Are my bra choices not okay? They hold my breasts in a comfortable position and protect them from injury which happens to emphasize them (not why I wear them). Are my tank tops (like the ones you purchased) not okay because I have large breasts? Are my knee length stretchy skirts allowing air flow not okay? (I live in a coastal tropical climate, it is 90 °F/32.22 °C today with 97% humidity while I am experiencing the magnificence of hormonal craze due to menses.) I am dressed for pragmatic comfort and movement with arms/legs exposed. Who determines if my very female form is too feminine or overly emphasized due to my comfortable and practical clothing choice?

Many of the boys and adult men I know (including my dad) have thick luxurious flowing hair no one would dare tell them that they are feminine. But I am told that my hair is feminine (gender based).

As a woman in a math-based profession I am ignored and dismissed until I get stern not because I choose to be feminine or be a woman but because I am a human female - the gender implications based on stereotypes include but are not limited to: girls/women aren't good at math (gender based), girls/women are weak and should not stand up for their position (gender based).

I get gender. I get sex.

Depending on where you are in the world gender changes but sex is constant; girls/women are mistreated because their sex determines how society applies gender and their societally determined gender (regardless of country) applies harmful stereotypes.

As a very wise MNer once said, "[m]y gender is like my oppression - sex based." I cannot escape it I cannot hide from it, I just focus on being me and wearing clothes that are comfortable and sometimes that I feel attractive in. I urge you to do the same if that works for you or not if it doesn't.

I wish you the best.

Depending on where you are in the world gender changes but sex is constant; girls/women are mistreated because their sex determines how society applies gender and their societally determined gender (regardless of country) applies harmful stereotypes.

I need to clarify that statement a bit... girls/women are mistreated because their sex and because their sex determines how society applies gender which sees harmful stereotypes employed to excuse abuse based on their sex.

That's a little better.

Believe what you want to believe
I will continue to think that people who do not see how clothing can be used against women or to limit women , to reenforce harmful stereotypes, are misguided or narrow minded

Bully for you. Carry on hectoring and lecturing. I doubt you'll change anyone's mind but you can enjoy basking in your own sense of superiority.

Sorry. I am being superior for stating to the op that I had perhaps not behaved the way I think I should towards someone thinking through complex ideas?

Hectoring an lecturing because I tried to explain myself at your behest

[quote SoulofanAggron]@alexdgr8 Others in the thread mentioned it before me. After he died it came out that he raped a fourteen year old girl. www.thrillist.com/entertainment/nation/i-lost-my-virginity-to-david-bowie

Apologists say that's just what it was like in those days, but I don't think that's ok, and the performers would still've known some of the girls were underage (though they might claim they didn't.)[/quote]
i read that account, written by the girl herself. it is not a rape.
even as an adult, she talks about it as wonderful, and that she often saw him again afterwards, presumably for the same type of activity, for ten years, she says, and it was always great.
also she says, who wouldn't want to lose their virginity to david bowie.
there is no element of force or co-ercion, or subtefuge.
and no regrets on her part.
technically it was underage, but that is not a rape. nor was he a paedo, they were junior groupies who literally threw themselves at rock stars.
her mother is more at fault. for allowing a rackety lifestyle.
i'm not saying that type of behaviour by celebs is or was ok.
but to conflate it with rape is demeaning to people who have suffered the appalling act of rape.

What kind of grown man wants to sleep with 14 yos? They are underage and can't consent.

Hectoring an lecturing because I tried to explain myselfat your behest

Yes I did ask for clarification of your earlier opaque posts such as:-

And when people start to realise that societal impact and pressure is bigger and more harmful to women than they realised, I guess a bit of support in trying to break free could be offered

and

And if you find that uncomfortable you may want to think about how much you are happy to b part of that gender repression

as thought they might be heading in the direction you've now made clear. Who needs the patriarchy to police women's choice of clothes and appearance when there's a "feminist" happy to do the job.

I a, not policing women's clothes . How do you get to that conclusion ?

Are you prehaps over sensitive on this? You have expressed some odd opinions. I am still trying to work out how to wear a skirt comfortably under a climbing harness, for you insist skirts are great for exercise. I am sure you will tell me it's far more comfortable than trousers. ( trousers not shorts to protect the skin on the legs and knees j

You seem to be interpreting other's comments itt very negatively Dido. Maybe take a deep breath and a break?

I don't even know what a climbing harness is (and you needn't bother enlightening me) but your example is presumably specialist equipment relating to a specific non- everyday activity? I don't think I've ever seen someone wearing a "climbing harness" whilst walking to the office.

If so, your comment is utterly irrelevant to what women wear as everyday, going to work/ going out /activities.

Oh and please don't twist or indeed invent what I said. I said there was no reason at all why one can't walk, cycle or even hike wearing a skirt. There really isn't.

You have chosen the generic term "exercise" and have chosen to refer to , I assume , a very specialist form of exercise as if it were some sort of "gotcha".

I never referred to "exercise" generally or to whatever activity requires you to wear a climbing harness.

Your example is frankly rather silly. Please feel free to dream up more scenarios- here's one. You probably can't go deep sea diving in a skirt.

@TheChampagneGalop

You seem to be interpreting other's comments itt very negatively Dido. Maybe take a deep breath and a break?

You're the poster who could not imagine how it was possible to go cycling or hiking in a skirt?

I think you may have misinterpreted "not agreeing" with as "interpreting negatively"

@midgebabe

I a, not policing women's clothes . How do you get to that conclusion ?

Are you prehaps over sensitive on this? You have expressed some odd opinions. I am still trying to work out how to wear a skirt comfortably under a climbing harness, for you insist skirts are great for exercise. I am sure you will tell me it's far more comfortable than trousers. ( trousers not shorts to protect the skin on the legs and knees j

Here you go, midge - Lucy Walker showing us modern day climbers how to enjoy the mountains in a skirt.

Though she'd have been stuffed if she'd fallen down a crevasse.

I'm the poster who was genuinely interested in discussing dresses as sportswear with you. As I already explained on the other thread where you also complained about my posts which you seemed to think were meant in some negative way.

Believe what you want to believe
I will continue to think that people who do not see how clothing can be used against women or to limit women , to reinforce harmful stereotypes, are misguided or narrow minded

I'm not misguided or narrow-minded. I know clothing can be used by men to stereotype women...she was asking for it in that short skirt and revealing thong...companies forcing women to wear uncomfortable heels and tight skirts that they can't run in if they need to...She's easy in that strappy top and lycra hot pants etc...
Oh isn't she sweet and pure in that ankle length frilly skirt and frilly blouse etc... Yes, we know men think like this (and unfortunately some women do too). We don't have to let it influence us. If you let the male gaze alter the way you dress, then you are letting them win.

As for the pp's example, I couldn't wear a skirt under a climbing harness although rarely wear a skirt anyway. But that wouldn't be relevant to most women, funnily enough we can pick our clothing to match our needs.
Just because we choose to wear what we want, it doesn't mean we adhere to stereotypes inflicted on us by men. Lucy Walker is a daft example, no one today would wear an ankle length skirt weighed down by snow. It was the expectation of the times, and we can all acknowledge that it was ridiculous, but fair play to her for getting on with it. Modern hiking skirts are a different breed, and not for cold and snow, please credit women with more sense. We don't have to reduce ourselves to gender neutral attire just to call ourselves feminists.

For those who are saying a lot of women already live that way, I should just have rightly said that well yeah, I said that in the OP.

Anyway, in case anyone ever comes across this thread and is actually wanting to do this stuff or whatever, this has been my experience so far:-

I've been dressing gender free for about a week. Usually if I was wearing stuff that wasn't stretchy/very form fitting and feminine, I would feel uncomfortably fat (I'm not overweight, I'm just weird about weight etc) ugly, and frumpy, but I haven't felt that way.

I think because what I'm doing is supported by an ideology I believe in, I've felt ok/good about it. This is not to say anyone is telling women how they should dress, this is just a thing one school of feeminism tries to do. We think it'd be good if all women do it, but that doesn't mean we're going to criticize other women's choices; every woman's decisions are made in the context of patriarchy.

I'm also trying to stop judging my worth by my appearance as much as I used to. Maye some of you will say you are paragons that hardly ever did this- but this isn't true of a lot of us. So I used to feel bad about my aging face, jawline not perfect etc. I've started to view myself and others in less of an external way. The body is just a vehicle, a minor part of what someone is. Yes, a lot of people maybe always were saints in that respect, but I was not.

Hopefully I can stop having disordered eating patterns as I have at times, as of course that is just another destructive manifestation of femininity to an extent, judging ourselves by our weight, appearance etc. Although more men (mainly gender non-conforrming men) are developing eating disorders, it's still predominantly a female problem. Instead, I'm going to try and eat more healthily.

Prioritizing comfort in clothing is part of self-care, self support.

I also for instance used to have quite a childlike mode of sitting, moving, so I could be sat on the grass cross-legged playing Pokemon, I'd have a dress and leggings on, and a van beeped at me as they thought I was showing my gusset or something. Now I wear trousers I can move how I like and not worry it could be revealing or whatever. I know a lot of women get beeps but it might mean I get less than I previously did (which other women wouldn't have got for ths particular
reason, though many get some of course.)

Trying to do something like this, that goes against gender norms, has made me feel more fiesty.

I like that the clothes cohere with the rest of the ideology of this (possibly fringe) type of feminism. Maybe it's like a religion but I don't mind. I also got a venus symbol necklace.

Anyway, those are some of my findings.

I would recommend trying it to any woman/feminist who has previously dressed 'girly.'

If you let the male gaze alter the way you dress, then you are letting them win.

@SusannaSpider I wouldn't be dressing any way based on the male gaze particularly, if that's what you mean, it's the opposite. Although maybe if I'm going to come out as lesbian/give up men, a lot of women doing so do choose to dress in a way that doesn't particularly attract male attention.

A lot of women mostly do let the male gaze or what society might see as attractive influence what they wear. To give up all that is the opposite really, it's dropping dressing primarily based on that.

Just because we choose to wear what we want, it doesn't mean we adhere to stereotypes inflicted on us by men.

Clothes such as skirts, dresses etc are stereotypically feminine in themselves.

I think we just get a bit irritated with the phrase 'gender free'

I dress in what I feel comfortable as do many many women. I just don't get the whole 'gender free ' bollocks.

Choosing to wear genes and a t shirt is not gender free. This is not the 1920's or 1950's and wearing trousers is not breaking some kind of taboo.

Women I know do not think like you.