Meet the Other Phone. A phone that grows with your child.

Meet the Other Phone.
A phone that grows with your child.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Debbie and Stephanie Hayton interview transcript

356 replies

Clymene · 17/10/2020 12:02

I thought the women of FWR might be interested in the interview that Debbie and Stephanie did with the Straight Spouse Network podcast this week.

It explains quite a lot about Stephanie's demeanour in their interview with Stella O'Malley for her documentary.

* [edited by MNHQ - broken link removed] * **

OP posts:
Thread gallery
6
SophocIestheFox · 29/11/2020 12:38

Bloody hell, a new low.

Whatwouldscullydo · 29/11/2020 12:43

Bloody hell, a new low
And yet entirely predictable. Although I dont disagree with all this person has said, that would be crazy. No one is wrong all of the time and disagreeing with someone because of who they are and not what they actually said is something straight out the tra handbook. But this is what happens when someone is given a platform who otherwise is fairly insignificant, and rarely challenged or required to give the same degree of evidence or examples etc that would be expected of women others.

ZuttZeVootEeeVro · 29/11/2020 12:46

'Option' is a strange expression to use in this context. As if women have choice in deciding where they are housed. Many are grateful to be within travelling distance for their relatives.

I think hayton is getting carried away with the idea 'it's not genuine transpeople that's the problem, it's the men who will abuse it'. It turns out that there are limits to how much women see transwomen as women, and women can see that people who consider themselves 'genuine' may abuse the system, too.

Cailleach1 · 29/11/2020 12:47

This really stands out for me. While one side seems to be saying 'me, me, me and following what they want irrespective of the effects on those they have a responsibility to nurture. This increased the burden on the parent who selflessly prioritises the wellbeing of their offspring. The children were lucky to have Stephanie to care about them.

If I'm honest, it was a default position, but it was a default position that I actively chose, that I did want, if I could hold the family together then I wanted to do that.

Stephanie on staying together. Although her OH wasn't going to prioritise the needs of the minor offspring. Quite the opposite.

Reminds me of G.Howes speech about being undermined internally from someone who is meant to be on your team. The bit about your own captain It’s rather like sending our opening batsmen to the crease only for them to find that before the first ball is bowled, their bats have been broken by the team captain.

It is upside down having to limit the possible damage of the actions of the other parent on your mutual offspring.

EmpressWitchDoesntBurn · 29/11/2020 12:55

I think hayton is getting carried away with the idea 'it's not genuine transpeople that's the problem, it's the men who will abuse it'.

Which is utter bollocks unless you believe that a) all the males currently identifying as transwomen in UK prisons (www.keep-prisons-single-sex.org.uk has a lot of info on them) are pretending, and b) that whether they genuinely consider themselves trans makes any difference as to how dangerous they are.

PotholeParadies · 29/11/2020 12:55

ZuttZeVootEeeVro

'Option' is a strange expression to use in this context. As if women have choice in deciding where they are housed. Many are grateful to be within travelling distance for their relatives.

Yy. Chances of such a scheme remaining an option for women in practice are basically nil. Women would end up there despite having wanted to serve their sentence in the female estate.

And what would happen to a woman who chose a newfangled mixed prison and then changed her mind? How quickly would they process her transfer to the female estate?

Oxyiz · 29/11/2020 12:59

That tweet is from someone who clearly has no idea why single sex spaces are needed.

EmpressWitchDoesntBurn · 29/11/2020 13:00

@Clymene

Here's the follow up tweet (also deleted)
Yes - his suggestion that ‘Maybe we could have separate mixed-sex prisons for those deemed to be of low risk. But why restrict access to trans-identified males?’
TinselAngel · 29/11/2020 13:06

@Oxyiz

That tweet is from someone who clearly has no idea why single sex spaces are needed.
Or knows but doesn't care.
RedToothBrush · 29/11/2020 13:09

Just a point I think all but one person on this thread has missed, and that's about timing.

Why do this interview now? And for whose benefit?

Someone upthread pointed out that Stephanie has done this interview once the youngest child has left home.

This means in effect she is less tied to the relationship in the same way she was.

At this point, this is where DH starts to make 'concessions' and 'admissions' of guilt. Why?

Not because they had previously been unaware of the issues and the impact on Stephanie. I simply don't believe that. Stephanie position has always and continues to be irrelevant.

At the very point, Stephanie has ties that bind her to DH, DH suddenly confesses to bad behaviour.

Isn't that almost to say 'I'm not bad as they say I am you know. See i can make amazing road to Damascus confessions which prove im different /better' etc etc. It strikes me as yet another pattern of control by almost 'giving permission' to have these feelings but in a way that the power and focus remains on DH and undermines any thoughts of leaving that Stephanie might now be at risk of entertaining. It says well you don't have to leave me because I am recognising my poor behaviour.

In a more traditional domestic abuse situation you would recognise the pattern of a man admitting he is doing something wrong but not necessarily being sincere in his willingness to do anything to actually change. Its an admission of bad behaviour but expecting reward cookies for admitting it without actually having to address the behaviour.

In terms of 'infantilising' Stephanie, I think its important to point out that many woman don't recognise they are being abused. And by the time they do recognise that pattern they are conditioned to accept it and don't have much of a concept of how if they changed their lives it would be better. Its beyond comprehension. They just don't know any different is realistically possible. And this can happen to 'strong' willed women as well as 'weak' willed women. This concept of strong v weak willed is mired in problematic definitions and understanding of how domestic abuse works. Emotionally trying to separate yourself from someone you've been with for 20 years isn't easy and something that women who appear 'strong' can do. Women are trained to conceal how this is affecting them, especially in more middle class social circles, because they are taught to behave in certain ways to maintain appearance.

The other thing that strikes me is the influence of the transwidows here. It I s becoming increasingly difficult for DH to avoid certain scrutiny because awareness of the pattern of behaviour is growing - especially in the circles DH seeks the approval and attention from. For DH to continue to have the same level of profile they have to keep finding a new narratives to their story to keep attention on them. A bit like Katie Price always having another self made drama on so she can make more money by doing a new interview about how hard her life is. DH has a certain target audience - and has to pitch to that audience and stay relevant to that audience as the wider narrative on trans issues shifts. DH knows the market is shifting. Stephanie is likely to become increasingly more of a prop as things move on. Because again, since her children have now left home, including her in the story ties her closer to DH going forward...

I think the thing to watch is 'on whom terms' is all this on? Is it 'strong Stephanie's'?

Will Stephanie ever be allowed to define herself as a separate identity to DH? She has surrendered so much of that in reference to DH already. Doing interviews like this doesn't separate her. It does the opposite as it ties her story and identity to DH. She's not a woman with a husband who is a wanker who didn't consider her mental health or her emotional or social needs. She's not a woman who has put her kids first in a shitty situation. She always defined as DH's wife and in secondary deferential terms to DH.

I think this story has some way to run.

Datun · 29/11/2020 13:26

It's unbelievable that DH did not anticipate jawdropping outrage. They have openly admitted to being AGP, and are now promoting the 'option' of mixed sex prisons, like some kind of validation hotel.

And it's not just women who have to be included in the scenario, but men who aren't trans too?

EmpressWitchDoesntBurn · 29/11/2020 13:29

That’s extremely perceptive, RedToothBrush.

NotTerfNorCis · 29/11/2020 14:37

Maybe it wasn't a serious suggestion but more along the lines of 'if you allow some males in women's prisons, why limit it to males identifying as women... why not mix the sexes '. Which of course would be ridiculous. The same argument could be used for women's sports to show how ridiculous any inclusion of males would be.

RedToothBrush · 29/11/2020 15:01

@EmpressWitchDoesntBurn

That’s extremely perceptive, RedToothBrush.
Always ask who? , what? , when? and why?
carlaCox · 29/11/2020 15:14

The prisons thing is really shocking. I don't understand how on earth you would assess which men are "low-risk"? Priests, teachers, policemen, doctors, judges - all upstanding members of society, all just as likely to sexually harass/assault/rape women.

And it's not even about whether or not those incidents happen. It's about women living in perpetual fear of it happening. I mean for god's sakes, how many times do we have to say this?!

R0wantrees · 29/11/2020 15:47

@NotTerfNorCis

Maybe it wasn't a serious suggestion but more along the lines of 'if you allow some males in women's prisons, why limit it to males identifying as women... why not mix the sexes '. Which of course would be ridiculous. The same argument could be used for women's sports to show how ridiculous any inclusion of males would be.
Dr Hayton has written, in some detail, about his preferences in the event he received a custodial sentence.

Crime & Justice March 2019 'Are transgender prison wings the answer?'
(extract)
"In the male population we are at risk from men who see us as an affront to masculinity; in the female population we pose a risk to women. But if people like White are too dangerous to be put with women, perhaps they’re too dangerous for me also, should we be housed together in a transgender wing.

The simple answer is not to get sent to prison, and that is one of my aims in life. Good intentions, however, are sometimes not enough. A momentary lapse of concentration on the motorway can lead to disastrous consequences and ultimately to a custodial sentence.

Should that happen, I would prefer to be accommodated within the female estate. I identify with women, my hormone levels are in the female range and my sex characteristics look female.

That used to be sufficient. As long ago as 1989, Stephanie Booth – a notable transsexual and the founder of the Transformation business – was held at Askham Grange Women’s Prison after being convicted for dealing in pornography.

However, times have changed and feelings and opinions are now in the ascendency. In a society that believes a woman can have a penis, why should such a person be incarcerated with men? But after the Karen White fiasco, it is clearly not a good idea to hold them with women either. One of the reports that emerged from New Hall prison described White’s penis, “sticking out of the top of her pants, covered by her tights.”

Such accounts leave me very reluctant to agree to be held with people like White." (continues)

Given the choice between a transgender unit and a low security male prison close to home, I would be tempted to take the latter option, especially if a risk assessment specified a single cell and separate toilet and washing facilities. I would prefer to be assessed according to my risk profile than my transgender status." (continues)

www.crimeandjustice.org.uk/resources/are-transgender-prison-wings-answer

Whatwouldscullydo · 29/11/2020 16:09

Didn't they build a separate wing in one womens prison? So money that could have been spent on better food or education or therapy was spent on a wing to house male inmates.?

R0wantrees · 29/11/2020 16:29

@Whatwouldscullydo

Didn't they build a separate wing in one womens prison? So money that could have been spent on better food or education or therapy was spent on a wing to house male inmates.?
My understanding was that they took over a facility which already existed at HMP Downview which was intended to support a small group of women prisoners to develop life skills.

The recent Judicial Review which was started and quickly suspended is focussed on this prison.

28 October 2020 Daily Mail
(extract)
"A female prisoner who was sexually assaulted by a trans inmate will today launch a challenge against the policy of keeping such offenders in women's prisons.

She was attacked by an inmate who identified as female but had not had reassignment surgery.

The trans woman had convictions for serious sexual offences.

Yet the offender was still put in a women's jail, Downview in Surrey.

A judicial review will seek to overturn government policy which allows men who have been awarded a gender recognition certificate from being housed in female prisons." (continues)

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8886815/Prisoner-sexually-assaulted-jail-launches-bid-ban-trans-inmates-womens-prisons.html

Whatwouldscullydo · 29/11/2020 16:39

Aaah yes thats the one.

Of a the things to spend money on that could have helped women they choose this instead Hmm

MichelleofzeResistance · 29/11/2020 17:15

That tweet. Confused

I have every sympathy that DH does not want individuals like KW lumped in with them, or to have to endure such behaviour - who would? And that the movement has made life considerably more difficult for DH, I have sympathy there too. But it's not the problem of women to help with, not least because things have been shifted to the point where if you say yes to DH you cannot say no to KW. And as yet, there's no reliable niceness test.

But for pete's sake, mixed sex prisons as an option on the menu, as if the prison service is some kind of chain burger restaurant? In reality, such things are controlled by funding, places, location, and many other influences rather than customer choice. Not to mention that prisons are separate sex for actual reasons. Quite important ones.

In this fantasy mixed sex choice presumably everybody would be choosing their toilet and shower and sleeping arrangements based on their gender preference rather than sex based? So essentially females needing to be in a situation of constant and extreme vulnerability with unknown males and hope that none of them take advantage of the situation, and that will just all be sunshine and roses will it? And that's aside from the prison service having to police and referee what inevitably will happen if you have a lot of bored, unhappy people of both sexes living together. Which sex tends to be the loser in terms of sexual assault, abuse, domestic violence, coercive control and pregnancy in mixed sex situations I wonder?

The reasons for 99% of the population and the reality of managing them requiring separate sex provision do not go away because 1% of male born people would like to find a reason to be in female spaces.

testing987654321 · 29/11/2020 17:19

And as yet, there's no reliable niceness test.

Well, a criminal record isn't a bad test really. No men should be placed in women's prisons.

Clymene · 29/11/2020 17:27

I'm sorry that a proportion of men are vicious murdering violent bastards and accept that you're more likely to come across them in prison than most places.

It must be very frightening to be incarcerated with men like that. But it's not women's problem to solve, just like it is not women's problem is transwomen feel they are at risk of assault using men's toilets.

OP posts:
MichelleofzeResistance · 29/11/2020 17:36

We're back really to there needing to be better provision and standards of care for vulnerable male prisoners, which could easily be developed (and should be) for GBT and mental health needs in particular.

Although this is largely how the wing system works in male prisons.

napody · 29/11/2020 17:54

Dear God, Stephanie, LTB.
The kids have left home now.
You have borne enough.

I actually think Debbie has moments of self awareness that are very useful, and very rare in these situations. So she has been a useful voice at times, but it's a very, very low bar (just glimmers in a sea of self absorption)

Al77 · 29/11/2020 18:06

Mumsnet mods, I am using the word autogynephilia, but only in the context of Debbie Haytons's first person testimony of having it, so I don't think it contravenes talk guidelines.

Debbie Hayton is a very powerful GC ally, a lovely person and her wife Stephanie clearly still loves her and is no doormat, she has made an informed decision to stay.

I basically agree whole heartedly with every word Debbie has written on the subject of the gender issue (and infact nearly every other issue) She is calm and nuanced and is under alot of fire from TRA's.

In Debbie's blog, which is worth a read, she talks in detail about her personal struggles with autogynephilia.

She openly admits that a full transition did not solve all her problems, but eased her dysphoria and hints that orchidectomy may have been the fix.

She talks about her agony about what her condition was doing to the woman she loves. She openly acknowledges that social and medical transition do not make her a biological woman. She is respectful of women's boundaries.
She also changed my mind on the Autogynephilia issue. I had previously made the mistake of thinking about "deserving" and "undeserving" trans people.

To me she is to all intents and purposes a woman and she is part of the solution.