Debbie and Stephanie Hayton interview transcript

[Clymene]

I thought the women of FWR might be interested in the interview that Debbie and Stephanie did with the Straight Spouse Network podcast this week.

It explains quite a lot about Stephanie's demeanour in their interview with Stella O'Malley for her documentary.

* [edited by MNHQ - broken link removed] * **

AI77

Debbie has been seen to use the women's toilets at a WPUK conference. I'm not sure her statements and articles are always in line with her actions.

@Al77

Mumsnet mods, I am using the word autogynephilia, but only in the context of Debbie Haytons's first person testimony of having it, so I don't think it contravenes talk guidelines.

Debbie Hayton is a very powerful GC ally, a lovely person and her wife Stephanie clearly still loves her and is no doormat, she has made an informed decision to stay.

I basically agree whole heartedly with every word Debbie has written on the subject of the gender issue (and infact nearly every other issue) She is calm and nuanced and is under alot of fire from TRA's.

In Debbie's blog, which is worth a read, she talks in detail about her personal struggles with autogynephilia.

She openly admits that a full transition did not solve all her problems, but eased her dysphoria and hints that orchidectomy may have been the fix.

She talks about her agony about what her condition was doing to the woman she loves. She openly acknowledges that social and medical transition do not make her a biological woman. She is respectful of women's boundaries.
She also changed my mind on the Autogynephilia issue. I had previously made the mistake of thinking about "deserving" and "undeserving" trans people.

To me she is to all intents and purposes a woman and she is part of the solution.

I don't want to speak for all of us, but I think in general here, we're not interested in men's struggles with AGP, as feminists we're concerned with the effect it has on women, which in the majority of cases seems to amount to domestic abuse.

I recommend this woman centred article by Dr Em.

uncommongroundmedia.com/domestic-abuse-related-to-late-transitioning-partners-part-i-coercive-control/

D. Hayton talks about psychologically abusing Stephanie Hayton in the interview this thread is about.

I am a DV survivor and I'm studying physics and he's definitely part of the problem in my eyes. I was so infuriated by his arrogant ignorant physics article way before I learnt his wife is a female physics teacher! Jesus Christ.

"We must learn and then teach our children that niceness does not equal goodness. Niceness is a decision, a strategy of social interaction; it is not a character trait. People seeking to control others almost always present the image of a nice person in the beginning." - Gavin DeBecker, The Gift of Fear.

I think we should listen to the trans widows, the women who find themselves in these relationships.

To me she is to all intents and purposes a woman and she is part of the solution.

And of course you’re perfectly entitled to your opinion.

To me, though, DH is categorically not a woman, and my opinion is that DH is part of the problem.

So where does that leave us? You presumably consent to DH using women’s facilities.
I don’t.
Does your consent override my refusal of consent?
Or is it the other way around?

Also, can I ask what definition of the word “woman” you’re using?

To me she is to all intents and purposes a woman and she is part of the solution

I think its worth pointing out that some. Note i said some not all by a long shot, are "on our side" for many of the same reasons as us, but also because advocating for things like self ID cheapens the experiences of some of those who have undergone full transition. Its easy to forget that when we need all the help we can get.

Also, can I ask what definition of the word “woman” you’re using?

Certainly not one that is meaningful to me.

I'm using pronouns based on perceived sex and material reality as he supports in this article: www.rt.com/op-ed/504802-neo-pronouns-social-engineering/ where he warns against the 'worrying' message that "Pronouns should not be chosen by the observer on the evidence of what they see, but imposed by the subject on the basis of how they claim to feel about themselves. This is a massive leap from how we used to use pronouns (and most adults probably still do). They cease to describe material reality, and instead label identities. Why is the BBC doing this to our children?"

@Whatwouldscullydo

To me she is to all intents and purposes a woman and she is part of the solution

I think its worth pointing out that some. Note i said some not all by a long shot, are "on our side" for many of the same reasons as us, but also because advocating for things like self ID cheapens the experiences of some of those who have undergone full transition. Its easy to forget that when we need all the help we can get.

It’s easy to be unaware that it’s those who underwent “full transition” who were behind all the changes that paved the way for all the excesses we see now, and that trust that some of those people were/are genuinely “on our side” is often sadly misplaced.

This is a very illuminating thread:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3463920-Lets-go-back-to-2007

Yes theres alot i/we could say with regards to that and several examples i could mention however I erred on the side of caution

Also this from Julia Long

uncommongroundmedia.com/a-meaningful-transition-julia-long/

Oh yes I remember that article.

I think it points out alot of stuff we'd get deleted if we wrote on here which if course makes being able to make some points very difficult..

@Al77 - have you listened to the interview/read the transcript? Hayton happily admits that Stephanie's boundaries were of no concern several times. I don't suppose random women's are any interest either, despite articles in the spectator.

Deeds, not words.

I think Debbie H. advocates for a third space, but regardless she already has the legal right to use female toilets and has had since 2010. Under current laws, trans people have a default right to use whichever single-sex area they choose, but can be turned away if doing so can be justified as proportionate.

I think rather than focusing on trying to roll back existing legislature ,which in the current climate seems unrealistic, we need to prevent further erosion of sex based rights, conflation of sex and gender and blurring of the sex binary.

I don't personally feel threatened by trans women in public spaces, but no my consent and boundaries do not overide anybody elses. That particular boundary of public facilities no longer exists though.

I guess I don't have a hard line on post op transexuals at all, I think they are utterly caught in the crossfire and if they have surgically removed their male genitalia, fashioned themselves the primary sex characteristics of a woman, and legally changed their gender via a GRC after rigourous medical and psychological assessment as far as I am concerned they are no longer male bodied. Not a man. That doesn't make a trans woman the same as a biological woman, but no sexual threat and to all intents and purposes a woman.

I am quite hardline about self id/GRC/any sort of legal recognition without medical and psychological assessment. I think participation in competative sports is a no brainer, is cheating and should be outright banned but my main concern is about the ideological shift away from liberal values of free speech and debate ,the bullying, intimidating and silencing tactics of the Social Justice Movement, the stifling of academia and scientific research, the reach and influence of Stonewall on companies, non govermental public organisations and the ex post facto changes to policy happening everywhere under the guise of inclusivity. All of which Debbie is helping with.

Awesome that I can disagree with out being silenced, shamed or physically assaulted though.

@Clymene Yes, I read the transcript and I have been following Debbie's work for a while via the Spectator and on her blog. On her blog she goes into much more detail, she admits to and apologises for the hurt she caused her wife whilst in the powerful grip of Autogynephilia and goes on to reflect about what was going on in her head at the time in a way she couldn't see before the surgery. She does not strike me as narcissist, just in the powerful grip of a paraphilia.

regardless she already has the legal right to use female toilets and has had since 2010

What section of the EA are you referring to here?

as far as I am concerned they are no longer male bodied. Not a man. That doesn't make a trans woman the same as a biological woman, but no sexual threat and to all intents and purposes a woman.

So the only criteria for concern for a man to be in a women's space is that he can't rape a woman?

I can't believe we're having the toilets argument again. But maybe we could make it a changing room argument this time.

If I walk in to the women's changing room at my local swimming pool and see a man in there would you expect me to object? I certainly would.

Now I go in there and there is a man wearing makeup and a dress. I have no idea whether he has a penis or not, and frankly, I don't care. I still see a man and he should not be in there.

But according to you I can only object to undressing in front of a man if he is physically unable to rape me?

I don't know if you come across transgender people very often but I do, at various places I go out, I see men who say they are women. I still see men and don't know or care where they are on their journey to become a non-man it's not possible to change sex and they should not be in women's facilities.

Any man who claims to identify with women whilst invading their spaces is abusive.

AI77 just curious whether you’ve meet Debbie Hatton? I wonder whether you would still regard them as a woman in person. I haven’t met Debbie Hayton just seen video of them walking but i have met several transwomen in real life and in the majority of cases their sheer difference in size to me makes it impossible for me to not keep being aware they are not the same sex as me. (This is not obvious to men as they are not being towered over.) The scale of everything together with the body language makes it a very different experience to standing beside a tall woman.

But according to you I can only object to undressing in front of a man if he is able to rape me?

Oops, put an unable in there when it should have been able.

Anyway the point stands, it's fucking ridiculous that women's privacy to get changed is dependent on whether a man has a cock or not. Women's spaces are for women.

Take the penis off a male, inject some synthetic hormones and they still display typical male behaviors and entitlement.

Debbie is proof of that. Males -no matter what body modifications they have done to themselves- must not be allowed in female spaces, especially where vulnerable females may be trapped, like prisons. Shocking that this has to be said.

My request to be housed in the female estate would be based on my sex characteristics.

The (presumably) absence of a penis does not equal having female sex characteristics.

Why was it "inappropriate" to ask DH about surgery - so it wasn't asked - but fine to ask SH if she's now a lesbian ??

I think it would be very appropriate to ask DH about surgery, btw.