Man making skirts non-gender

[SusannaSpider]

Sorry, stupid title.

But what do you think of this link? Man likes to wear skirts and heels to work, still definitely a man, not a transwoman, not a sexual fetish, he just thinks skirts should be non gender, likes the style etc.

I just find this really refreshing, how things should be really, Men should be able to chose more traditionally feminine clothes, whilst still being a men.
www.boredpanda.com/confident-man-wears-heels-skirt-markbryan911/?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=BPFacebook

I couldn’t see the pics earlier...now that I have, it’s so obviously a sexual fetish. No way are those shoes for comfort.

Does a dishdasha qualify as a dress/skirt?

@BolloxtoGender

I don’t have problem either BlackWave, but your opinion nor mine together make up the norm.

But it is - if not the norm, well-tolerated - in the real suburb I live in, which is just an ordinary, middle ring suburb.

Men in skirts here just go about their business each Sunday. There's no risk. No vigilantes waiting to reinforce norms. We are part of the real world, and it's utterly unremarkable here.

They are not pushing the envelope in fuck-me shoes, so there is that. But I don't see anyone in those shoes.

And ordinary attire for most of the professional males in Inverness when I was there; it was the equivalent of wearing a business suit, as far as I could make out

Really? How interesting. Can't say I have ever noticed this on the many occasions I've been in Inverness.

Or indeed kilt wearing being the everyday norm in Inverness for anyone, professional or not , or any other part of Scotland. I suppose they turn out for rugby matches at Murrayfield but beyond that, no.

I'm bemused why posters are so determined to make out that the way this man dresses is nothing out of the ordinary.

Anyone that says people wear what clothes they want as opposed to clothes define a person (or other steroetypes) is fine in my book.

I don't see why a man wearing heels is any more a fetish than if a woman does. Genuinely not sure what I'm missing there.
I'm an ugg boots, crocs, and trainers kinda person though.

I guess having ‘no norm’ AS the norm, is the direction of travel that gets us into things like people dressing up in leather fetish gear /as dogs on a leash held by policemen 👮‍♂️ etc. as appropriate, and then if you even raise an eyebrow, being told that you are the one with the problem/ intolerant etc..

Kilts are dead expensive. Living in Scotland men don’t wear them all the time at all. But they would never wear a kilt with that look o; their faces that that guy has or with high heels

Lived in other countries where guys wear sarongs or wraps all the time but never with heels or that look on their faces

@Didolamenting I agree. This would not be ‘news’ or in the papers otherwise.

@youkiddingme

Anyone that says people wear what clothes they want as opposed to clothes define a person (or other steroetypes) is fine in my book.

I don't see why a man wearing heels is any more a fetish than if a woman does. Genuinely not sure what I'm missing there.
I'm an ugg boots, crocs, and trainers kinda person though.

Really?

A fetish has emotional/sexual relevance where it transgresses.

For a woman to wear a symbol (fairly extreme, but still) of femininity like mile high heels (which signal submission and sexual availability) is not transgressing but conforming to ideas of femininity. Hard for that to be a fetish. Conformity is not the bed rock of fetishism.

For a man to signal submissiveness and sexual availability by adopting a signifier of extreme femininity IS transgressive to masculine norms - and it's this transgression + an identification with the objectified other (the feminine woman) that enables the activity to be experienced as sexually/emotionally pleasurable.

Kilt style skirts, while a minority costume choice for men, do not carry the same charge. Unisex clothing generally doesn't, because it does not rely on notions of extreme femininity, disallowing the frisson of transgression.

I am not trying to make out anything at all about the way this man dresses, though it looks a bit impractical and uncomfortable to me. (Also why does he apparently keep a bicycle in the attic?)

I stated what I noticed; being from London at the time, I did notice the kilts, which for some reason I had not expected in Scotland. (Duh...) The man we were staying with (who wore one to go in to his office; he worked for the council) explained that it was quite usual when I remarked on it.

It's not 'no norms' if both sexes follow the norm that in Western societies, we cover the genitals, buttocks and upper thighs with clothing in public, unless at the pool or the beach where we may uncover the thighs.

Women can do that with a skirt, shorts, jeans or pants; men doing the same does not lead to leather + bondage in the street.

Of course, that never happens.

An interesting topic. I would argue that women have made trousers non-gendered in the west during the last century in the sense that they are truly gender neutral in many places. So from that angle this piece is describing something which is not new at all.

The one thing I dislike about almost all traditionally sexed clothing is that women's clothing is often more cumbersome to wear and possibly even more hazardous to one's health.

A tight pencil skirt and stilettos make it hard to run away from a would-be rapist, a burqa and similar long voluminous garments can be caught in moving bits of machinery and can be extremely hot in warm weather.

Then there's the fact that women's traditional clothing has always signaled sexual availability (at least in theory) in some ways, either by covering the body altogether or by showing bits of it in ways which a particular society deems desirable for a woman belonging to a certain class etc.

I would love to have clothing which is safe and comfortable but also interesting for others to look at. That could easily be non-gendered.

Does a fetish have to be transgressive? The colins dictionary defines it as 'an unusually strong liking or need for a particular object or activity, as a way of getting sexual pleasure.'
I hear many women say they feel sexy in high heels - is there a huge difference between extrapolating norms and breaking them to feel sexy - ie is there a huge difference between me wearing something that exagerrares female submissiveness and being turned on by it and a man emphasising his female submissive side and being turned on by it?

Even if a large part of why he dresses that way is sexual, is that any different to a man or woman who likes to dress in a 'sexy' way on a regular basis whether in accordance with or against gender stereotypes?
I'm actually not sure about any of this. But I feel a lot less concerned about someone of either sex dressing a big too sexily for work and wanting some attention than I do about other current issues.

@BolloxtoGender

Of course, that never happens.

Is than in answer to me?

It does happen in some communities, but men (especially where I live, in a hot climate) expanding their clothing choice to include comfortable skirts - and here, I don't refer to Mr Stiletto - do not cause this to happen!

I've been seeing men in skirts regularly since I moved here 4 years ago, and still no bondage on the streets.

It's no different to when women began to adopt pants and trousers, way back, for comfort and utility.

Men in skirts will not be the downfall of civilization.

The fetish stuff has a different root to blokes wearing kilts or similar.

I wish more men would do this until it was totally normalized and clothes (any clothes) became truly able to be worn by anyone without people batting an eye.

I'm not seeing the fetish argument, really.

I cant quite determine what is interesting about these photos but certainly the "poses" are highly sexualised. it is not that he is trying to wear a dress/skirt and at the same time say "nothing remarkable here - please accept it as unremarkable so that it becomes a norm". He still seems to be wearing a "costume" but I accept that this is my prejudice.

Funny enough last week I asked my husband if he would be willing to go out and about in a dress - very much as a man - in order to support women and girls - he said yes - I wll suggest something very understated as that is the point.

Why would your husband wear a dress to support woman and girls ?

Many girls and women don’t wear dresses.

He should support women and girls by talking about FGM to his mates
Talking about violence against girls and women to his mates

Joining campaigns

Wearing a dress ffs

@littlbrowndog

Why would your husband wear a dress to support woman and girls ?

Many girls and women don’t wear dresses.

He should support women and girls by talking about FGM to his mates
Talking about violence against girls and women to his mates

Joining campaigns

Wearing a dress ffs

Precisely 😂

I think we are talking at cross purposes BlackWave, you appear to be aggressively arguing with things I have not actually said. I was thinking generally about where queer theory and queering of all norms to the extreme Ultimately could lead, and it popped into my mind the example of policemen walking people dressed as dogs.

he might do those other things too - but this thread is about wearing certain items of clothing and for a man to wear them as a man is just to make the simple point that "woman" is not a costume.

@youkiddingme

Does a fetish have to be transgressive? The colins dictionary defines it as 'an unusually strong liking or need for a particular object or activity, as a way of getting sexual pleasure.' I hear many women say they feel sexy in high heels - is there a huge difference between extrapolating norms and breaking them to feel sexy - ie is there a huge difference between me wearing something that exagerrares female submissiveness and being turned on by it and a man emphasising his female submissive side and being turned on by it? Even if a large part of why he dresses that way is sexual, is that any different to a man or woman who likes to dress in a 'sexy' way on a regular basis whether in accordance with or against gender stereotypes? I'm actually not sure about any of this. But I feel a lot less concerned about someone of either sex dressing a big too sexily for work and wanting some attention than I do about other current issues.

Yes, there's a difference between 'feeling sexy' - though feminists would suggest it's possible to interrogate why, for example, wearing 4 inch stilettos might 'feel sexy' - and a fetish.

Gender critical feminism is critical of all imposition of gender - roles or expectations that are imposed on a sex - I'm not going to spend time fighting for men to wear skirts, but I see men breaking out of their own gender prison by adopting skirts as one clothing choice (among more important ways of challenging the constraints of masculinity) as positive.

It's part of the big picture, imo. A very small part, but nonetheless....

@BolloxtoGender

I think we are talking at cross purposes BlackWave, you appear to be aggressively arguing with things I have not actually said. I was thinking generally about where queer theory and queering of all norms to the extreme Ultimately could lead, and it popped into my mind the example of policemen walking people dressed as dogs.

I'm not being at all aggressive. Disagreement is not aggression.

I know what you're referring to, and I disagree that failure to.police men's clothing norms is responsible for it.

@occa

I wish more men would do this until it was totally normalized and clothes (any clothes) became truly able to be worn by anyone without people batting an eye.

I'm not seeing the fetish argument, really.

You find the shoes utterly unproblematic?