Man making skirts non-gender

[SusannaSpider]

Sorry, stupid title.

But what do you think of this link? Man likes to wear skirts and heels to work, still definitely a man, not a transwoman, not a sexual fetish, he just thinks skirts should be non gender, likes the style etc.

I just find this really refreshing, how things should be really, Men should be able to chose more traditionally feminine clothes, whilst still being a men.
www.boredpanda.com/confident-man-wears-heels-skirt-markbryan911/?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=BPFacebook

@Italiangreyhound

I totally agree with Itisbetter

"Wear what you want is fine at home. Once you are at work I think it becomes less straightforward. I would not work with a nudist for example. I’d struggle with vest tops or short shorts. I don’t enjoy being close to others flesh."

I am sure there are quite a few outfits I'd find problematic if people wore them in my company at work. So when we as a society go out in public, we attempt to wear things that are not going to be very difficult for others. If we wear stuff others don't like fine. That's life.

If I worked with a guy who dressed like this I would accept his clothes style and not comment on it. But I'd definitely feel uncomfortable around a guy in high heels and tight skirts.

Right, so keep it behind closed doors. In other words, make sure it retains the status of a fetish/dirty little secret. Because men in skirts and/or heels aren't fit to be seen in public....! Sort of like the attitude many people had (still have) to any kind of PDA between men/gay people. "It's fine as long as I don't have to see it/hear about it."

If someone felt uncomfortable around this man because of his clothes, surely that would be their problem - not his? And surely it would have more to do with their own negative assumptions and moral judgements about him and the sort of person he must be than his actual clothes.

Of course most people will be challenged, confronted, made uncomfortable by anyone who radically departs from the status quo. People are, on the whole, extremely conformist. This thread demonstrates that amply.

Only a hundred years ago, women in the West wearing trousers was extremely scandalous, even illegal, and would have made most people "uncomfortable". It was often considered sexually provocative and kinky, as well. Let us all be grateful for the likes of Marlene Dietrich and Katherine Hepburn, who dared to make people uncomfortable and popularised trousers for women. We all need these daredevils and nonconformists.

Men still have a LONG way to go for equality in these matters.

BernardBlackMissesLangCleg

mmm, not sure I'm eloquent enough to convey what I'm really trying to say.

With regards to using submissiveness as part of sexuality, I was trying to ask if there is a huge difference between a man doing it and a woman - it's hard for me to 'get' this because the whole thing does sod all for me and I don't own nor desire to own a pair of stilettos. However, if women wear them to feel sexy, how is that different to if men do? I don't get why they're bloody sexy in the first place. I see young women with trout pouts and a 'sex-doll' look that I can only consider to be somehow submissive, I can't see anything that asserts the woman's personality in anyway other than to say, 'shag me as an object' - but I'm an old bat who may be spectacularly missing the point.

No, I don't equate women with being submissive. But I am aware of the narrative and it's hard to discuss the whole thing without falling into the trap of using the cliched descriptions when I'm trying to get into the head of anyone, male or female, who dresses that way. I simply don't get it. I'm not censoring it, It is just a mystery to me.

Men still have a LONG way to go for equality in these matters

Give over. Men started it all and men could easily have ended it. It benefits them to maintain the status quo.

How else do ordinary middle age white men become interesting and/or newsworthy for doing nothing

@bluebluezoo

I was an 80's teen, it seemed to be far more common then

Me too. I still have a hankering for real men with eyeliner, pirate blouses and long hair blowing in the wind...

Back when men were men

Lol. Sounds like you enjoyed hair metal and New Romantics

Lol. Sounds like you enjoyed hair metal and New Romantics grin

Hell, yes

He can wear whatever he wants and he looks great. However, I can't fathom why anyone of any gender would want to wear a skirt. Impractical and annoying IMO. I'm female and I don't own any. I have shorts, trousers, leggings etc and flat shoes and trainers. I thought heels were a curse that was forced on women to make their legs look thinner (I have no heels!) and I am surprised an active man would choose such impractical and uncomfortable footwear when it's not expected of him by society.

McSilkson
Only a hundred years ago, women in the West wearing trousers was extremely scandalous, even illegal, and would have made most people "uncomfortable".

Far more recently than that. In 1943 my aunt had to get special permission from the War Office to wear trousers because the job she was doing at the Box Hill bunkers meant she had to climb ladders.

And in 1968 a woman was refused a divorce because she was wearing a trouser-suit and the judge said she was improperly dressed.

McSilkson he can wear what he likes and I can feel about it any way I like. I didn't say he could not wear this out and about. I just agreed with another poster that some clothing is what people might wear at gome and when worn out might make others uncomfortable. His freedom to dress how he pleases doesn't negate my right to feel uncomfortable.

Your equating my discomfort at this outfit with discomfort at seeing men kissing is frankly ridiculous and you will not put words in my mouth.

Of course men can and so wear skirts, I said that. I find these outfits highly sexualized and highly gendered and rather than defeating gender by wearing them I think he is buying into gender.

Many men are completely free in the west to wear what they like. Many women, on the other hand, are very controlled by society in all parts of the world about their clothing. So I think it is women who have a '...LONG way to go for equality in these matters.'

I love the idea of all clothing being available equally to all people, but I really really don't like the phrase he uses ...

I prefer a 'masculine' look above the waist and a non-gendered look below the waist.

This irritates the hell out of me. Collared shirt = masculine. Skirt = non-gendered. Erasure of the feminine, again.

Stuff it. I DON'T CARE WHAT ANYONE WEARS. But stop denying the existence of two biological sexes, and stop adopting feminine things as genderless while retaining masculine things for the men.

True that happy.

I am warching part 2 of Honour on it hub. About the true story of the murder of Banaz Mahmod.

One of Banaz' s sisters has just said her father beat her and locked her in a room for wearing a skirt.

www.itv.com/hub/honour/2a7534

Mpat men really can wear what they like, and I can consider it however. But I am far more concerned with woman. Many of whom really cannot wear what they want.

Mpat

Most men...

Ps just a warning the programme I am watching is very disturbing. So sorry to bring such a horrible story onto the thread. It just seemed relevant as I was literally just watching it.

@McSilkson

It's interesting that Malahaha gave the sari as an example of a garment that would be unsuitable for a man, since they are very similar to togas, which were exclusively worn by male citizens in Ancient Rome.

You obviously haven't seen a meticulously pleated and wrapped sari, an art in itself; the way it moulds against the breast and hips; and the graceful way it swings when a woman walks! I'd like to see a man in a toga emulate that!

Whereas I'm happy for children to wear whatever they like, I admit to being more conservative when it comes to adults, and I'm not at all against the idea of dressing for the occasion, and keeping certain general tradition, such as brides in long flowing white dresses and grooms in suits, and staying with cultural norms. That's my preference, and anyone who wants to beat me over the head for not being GC enough about gendered clothing, are welcome to do so! I've never made any other claim.

I've seen a lot of photos of men in various kinds of dresses recently, and I've found none particularly appealing. Is that narrow-minded? Am I supposed to always applaud? idk
I've never liked having my opinions decided for me.

The guy in the article looks, well frankly quite ridiculous! He says its all about wearing what he wants which is fine, but he clearly shaves his legs and wears varnish on his toes, so it is really on another level then isn't it?

I’m also cross about him saying he’s non gendered below the waist. In meetings etc you see the ‘masculine’ side and then he gives the shock factor with the tight skirt legs and heels. By confidence does he mean slight semi? Very attention seeking.

I wish my bum looked like that in pencil skirts! I think people should be able to wear what they want and over time items associated with certain genders do change. But I also do believe trans people exist.

I think there's a certain amount of wanting attention associated with this that I don't full like. But then I really dislike attention grabbing behaviour.

I don't think you can make an equivalence between women wearing traditional men's clothes and men wearing traditional women's clothes.

Traditional women's clothes are usually a means of exerting patriarchal control and have often been sexualised. It's completely different from a woman wearing trousers. The reaction to Katherine Hepburn showing the shape of her legs in trousers was provoked by her choice to contravene the patriarchal demand to hide her shape in clothes that restricted her activities.

This man is, as previously noted, choosing to wear especially sexualised women's clothes. He's making a statement that clearly pleases him and appears to be a sexual statement.

One of the functions of gender in our current society is to signal who we want to attract, who we want to desire us (I agree with Andrea Long Chu on this, if not many other things). This man is straight so leads us to conclude that he is signalling either an attraction to himself in his skirts or , possibly, the enjoyment of sexual submission, both of which onlookers might prefer not to be privy to.

...Traditional women's clothes fulfil the function of making us private property (the demand breached by Dietrich and Hepburn) or public property. These days in the UK most of us choose to dress in a way that does neither.

This man enjoys breaching boundaries in a way that makes his body appear to be public property - but of course being male he is not as vulnerable as a woman.

This man is straight so leads us to conclude that he is signalling either an attraction to himself in his skirts or , possibly, the enjoyment of sexual submission, both of which onlookers might prefer not to be privy to

Thanks Tabby this helps me to explain to myself my instinctive 'no thanks, that's a fetish' reaction to those pictures

So when back in the day women wort trousers for compete or practicality - they were arrested. Men for a newspaper article.

@Whatwouldscullydo

He was called a twit, creepy, wanker, prick, sexual fetishist. And the level of hypocrisy in the actual criticism of how he looked and his actual clothes was awesome. Usually an attack on physical appearance is frowned on

None of us know if he's one or all of those things but can we please not pretend there's not a subset of men out there who are and given they don't wear signs or announce themselves we have as much proof he isn't as we do that he is.

It could be sexualky motivated. Thats a fact. Theres only one person who knows for sure amd that's him.

I'm not making any accusations on that. As I said only he knows.

But please...let's not pretend these men don't exist so you can use it all as some kind of "gotcha"

This is all irrelevant if you truly believe your (general your) little mantras.

I also love the many posts along the lines of well he can wear what he wants but why would anyone choose such an awful garment as a skirt or heels followed by the obligatory statement of how the poster never wears such clothing.

Some of you just can't stop yourselves seizing any opportunity to criticise anything feminine. It's another example of lip service being paid.

TabbyTurmoil thank you, that is so helpful.

Women's clothing is generally not at all practical or hard wearing. Women's shoes (clothes and shoes often worn by some women) make walking and running hard/harder. Strappy sandles can cut into feet and be uncomfortable. Fluffy mule slippers make it easier to slip over, IMHO.

Women's clothes don't usually have pockets, maybe because they spoil the line of the clothes. Women's tops are often low or ride up revealing mid drfts etc. Tight skirts and tight trousers reveal bums.

Who is this for? I think it is to show women off, to make us decorative. Men's clothing (shoes and clothing generally worn by men) does not usually follow this pattern.

So this is all so different from traditional men's clothing, which along with unisex clothes like t-shirts and jeans and trainers, makes movement easier and simply clothes the body.

So when people chose traditional female clothing it's fine but it isn't gender or sex neutral. It comes with a history.

The idea that he thinks below the waist he is gender neutral is preposterous. He knows what he has chosen and why. It's not gender neutral at all. If that was what he wanted, he'd go to work in t-shirt or sweater and jeans and trainers like many of us do. But that would not get multiple pictures on the internet!

Course it matters . Unless you think that it's ok to involve others in your sexual fetish and normalise and applaud a form of sexual harassment?

Wearing what you like because you like it and its not sexually motivated- knock yourselves out.

Involving unconsenting adults and children into your fetish - just no.

Unless you think it's impossible fir men to do one without doing both so we have to accept and normalise it all?

ps I am very happy with ''feminine' things. This isn't about being feminine. I don't think he looks remotely feminine.