Julie Bindel - article on allies

[Goosefoot]

Thought people might be interested in discussing this:

[https://unherd.com/2020/10/feminisms-dangerous-new-allies/]]

We've talked about this a lot here - I'm not sure Bindel has really said anything as worthwhile or interesting as lot of the regular posters here have, it seems a little one dimensional to me.

Maybe because she's really stuck on the left-good right-bad thinking and doesn't really consider whether there has been a change within those categories at all, or why the left has struggled with certain problems. It seems to me she sees it as almost random, and if we just take out the TRA stuff things can go back to normal.

It's interesting that some gender critical activists seem to support conspiracy theories.

Surely this depends on the theory. Apparently something like 40% believe the Princess Diana one, and there does seem to be a lot of questions there to me anyway (mind, someone who thinks its nonsense, will deny the many questions..such is the nature of CT really!)

'Support conspiracy theories' is a bit of nonsense to me, given the difference in theories, depending on topic. Hell, some 'conspiracy theories' have in the past been proven to be true too. So, they are not all alike. And certainly not all total nonsense.

It's interesting that some gender critical activists seem to support conspiracy theories.

And that link has already been successfully made in the minds of the general public ever since conspiracy theories were used to justify the mechanised slaughter of 6 million people.

Evidently not.

Here is something funny - the theory that all conspiracy theories are anti-Jewish is itself a conspiracy theory!

Crikey, this really is a very transparent attempt at guilt-by-association.

"Some people believe in conspiracy theories. Among those people are some people who are gender critical. Among those people are also people who believe in anti-semitic conspiracy theories. Historically, anti-semitic conspiracy theories led to the Holocaust. Therefore..."

I presume at this point, someone on this thread is wanting the lurkers to leap to the worst possible therefore imagineable. Not realising that most people lurking on here probably have a nodding acquaintance with what counts as a logical argument and what does not.

pushed for time but briefly

For those clinging to the idea that Brand New Tube is not a conspiracy site with sinister agendas....

This video is interesting and relevant

It features the CEO of BNT opining about Shaun Attwood's so called "prank" videos including the Daddygate video that lead to Attwood being referre to as Prince Attwood (an ironic reference to Prince Andrew)

Shaun Attwood and his apologist and good chum Sonia Poulton also feature in the video

There are lots of new YouTube channels, many created by former subscribers to Attwood's channel, exposing his lies and bullshit.

Here's a video from an interesting such channel (highly recommended) - this one explores some of the less savoury aspects of Attwood's activities when he was a drug dealer, not just an "ecstasy king pin" but a crystal meth dealer and addict.

Serious Allegations - Against Shaun Attwood by ''In Plain Sight'' alleged Underage US Girlfriend!

Astute readers who check out Attwood's channel will discover a collection of conspiracy themed videos promoting the same kind of batshit claims about Satanic Ritual Abuse that Beatrix Campbell has promoted over the decades.

Which brings me to the Bindel article in which she promotes Beatrix Campbell.

The batshit has infected the Left and the Right

It really is no longer about Left and Right it is about trying to stay thinking and skeptical and open minded and not jumping to conclusions until you have evidence.

Most things are nuanced and complex. Most people are nuanced and complex. There may be many layers to a thing.

The reason I promoted the books of Peter Pomerantsev to readers here is because they describe in a meticulous and detailed manner the way in which nation states, cults and criminal networks astroturf all kinds of community groups, including groups opposing one another and then set them against each other to create chaos.

These kinds of political cold wars are like a virus. They spread like a virus and usually you don't know that your community is infected until you are powerless to fight off the epidemic and are adversely affected by symptoms.

I would recommend this excellent video should readers be interested to study further - it is highly informative

Crikey, this really is a very transparent attempt at guilt-by-association.

I am finding this to be very much the case. And it is a very extreme broadbrush approach to describing conspiracy theories.

Like, a conspiracy theory could be attributed to the fact that a certain lobbyist group has somehow managed to have a misinterpretation of the EA2010 spread through government and other organisations. AND were involved in a 'back room' deal with an MP who complained when their 'deal' was ignored. Oh... wait....

@NRatched

By their very nature conspiracy theories are theories without credible evidence to support them and so at best are speculation which often rely on a distorted worldview which assumes there is some kind of hidden hand working behind the scenes to plot world events or disasters.

And it is this belief that is used, sometimes overtly, sometimes covertly, by antisemites. If you can get people to believe there is a secret cabal governing human affairs then you are one step closer to getting them to believe this cabal is made up of Jews and that something must be done about it.

The antisemitic conspiracy theories of the 1930/40s claimed that Jewish people were not only secretly running the world, or attempting to secretly run the world, but also the infamous blood libel - that Jewish people used the blood of Christian children in occult rituals. We can now see that same libel playing out in contemporary conspiracy theory with the claims of satanic or luciferian paedophile or genocidal plots being orchestrated by powerful people behind the scenes who in many cases just happen to be Jewish such as Bill Gates or Soros. They have become more sophisticated over the years as open antisemitism has become less tolerable but the intention is the same, to incite hatred towards Jews in the main, although they have increasingly been used to target other minorities.

I think there's a difference between someone casually speculating about singular events like Diana, although there is no evidence it was anything other than a tragic accident, and people promoting an entire worldview based on a hidden nefarious elite controlling world affairs which is what those involved with sites like Brand New Tube do. In fact they will use speculation about unusual events such as the death of Diana or 911 to draw people into that way of thinkig which is not just dangerous for society but also individuals mental health in my view. I knew one person who went down this rabbit hole and whose mental health deteriorated to the point he committed suicide leaving an awful tragic garbled note about how he couldn't cope with the Zionist plot against him and all humanity.

There should be no place for them rational political discourse, they are utterly toxic on every level, not least the people currently going round putting lives at risk by insisting COVID is a hoax.

For readers unfamiliar with Beatrix Campbell's long term promotion of batshit insanity there is some interesting archival video here

I think there's a difference between someone casually speculating about singular events like Diana, although there is no evidence it was anything other than a tragic accident, and people promoting an entire worldview based on a hidden nefarious elite controlling world affairs

Well yes. Hence, conspiracy theories are not all alike, as I said Regardless of the rest of it.

The antisemitic conspiracy theories of the 1930/40s claimed that Jewish people were not only secretly running the world, or attempting to secretly run the world, but also the infamous blood libel - that Jewish people used the blood of Christian children in occult rituals. We can now see that same libel playing out in contemporary conspiracy theory with the claims of satanic or luciferian paedophile or genocidal plots being orchestrated by powerful people behind the scenes who in many cases just happen to be Jewish such as Bill Gates or Soros. They have become more sophisticated over the years as open antisemitism has become less tolerable but the intention is the same, to incite hatred towards Jews in the main, although they have increasingly been used to target other minorities.

This

There are also many highly dubious "whistleblowers" and anti-trafficking and anti child abuse activists who are not what they appear to be.

Nazi propagandists published vile material depicting Jewish pimps and procurers exploiting German women and girls.

In India various Hindu nationalists have instigated lynchings of minority Muslims based on false accusaitons of child abduction and the "murder" of cows that are sacred to Hindus.

The blood libel was the foundation for countless pogroms.

It is extremely easy to create social discord, chaos and infighting by accusing people of being traffickers, paedos, satanists.

Of course evil cults exist, child abusers and animal abusers exist and traffickers exist but it is the easiest thing in the world to generate a pitchfork weilding mob based on false allegations of these kinds of things.

@Winesalot

Crikey, this really is a very transparent attempt at guilt-by-association.

I am finding this to be very much the case. And it is a very extreme broadbrush approach to describing conspiracy theories.

Like, a conspiracy theory could be attributed to the fact that a certain lobbyist group has somehow managed to have a misinterpretation of the EA2010 spread through government and other organisations. AND were involved in a 'back room' deal with an MP who complained when their 'deal' was ignored. Oh... wait....

I'd say that is verging on conspiracy theory, and is an example of how conspiratorial thinking has been weaponised against trans people, although I note it often comes with a suggestion that this is just the start, or people are being softened up, or there is some kind of elite with a broader more insiduous agenda using trans people as their first play.

Yes trans groups have lobbied governments as has every other group since governments began. But the idea that a handful of TRAs, and there only was a handful when the EA was introduced, have brainwashed both government departments and a host of other organisations to openly defy the law, as part of some sinister agenda, sounds a lot like conspiratorial thinking to me. It portrays trans people as some all powerful force working behind the scenes to corrupt society when in reality the EA was introduced due to widespread shifts in social attitudes to trans people and the interpretations of it are based on legal opinion based on case law to date, including the many cases which have been brought before the court in which a proportionate means of acheiving a legitimate aim has been used in an attempt just justify discrimination. No conspiracy, just boring social progress, a bit of lobbying, a bit of companies trying to look inclusive, and a lot of people, often highly qualified people, coming to a different interpretation of the law to many gender critical activists.

I suspect one reason why organised conspiracy theorists are all over the GC movement is they recognise conspiratorial thinking when they see it, and so are actively attempting to recruit. And it's working, look how Venice and co are shifting towards Covid denial and attending rallies to listen to Icke and Piers Corbyn.

This video is fascinating

This channel has some good content although their production skills are very poor.

It seems that Sonia Poulton is being sued by John Hemming.

Hemming is an MP who has made various forays into the world of batshit conspiracy theories himself and has been a long time campaigner against what he claims is the kidnapping of children by the UK state.

This particular conspiracy was prominent in the recent Save the / our Children / Stand Up X, anti-vaxx, anti-mask, QAnon protests with which we are all familiar

You can see him here on Alex Jones's video

Hemming was subsequently falsely accused of satanic ritual abuse by Esther Baker, a vulnerable adult who has moved in similar circles to Carl Beech in terms of "survivor" support and therapists with questionable affiliations and practices.

The snake bites it own tail again

For those clinging to the idea that Brand New Tube is not a conspiracy site with sinister agendas....

Not sure that anyone is disagreeing that it is a conspiracy site. It very plainly is. And just as clear is the fact that there will be content on there that people will find repulsive. However, I find this conversation is like saying that no one should use Speaker's Corner to speak about their topic because there are other's who have ill intent there.

If this site is a problem, then people should be active in having it shut down.

I have now been to the site and looked under Sonia Poultons channel and I have not found any of the content relating to those pictures posted on there. I am not saying it is not there, it very obviously was and most likely still is. I am not denying that at all. I am saying it is possible to go watch the content without coming across that content. It is possible that other's have also not come across this content. (it could also be algorithmically driven for certain times for instance)

I am also not trying to minimise the disgusting content, however, I am pointing out that I have found disgusting content on twitter, reddit and other platforms too. And chosen not to view/read it. And chosen not to discount someone's opinion because they also use the site.

I'd say that is verging on conspiracy theory, and is an example of how conspiratorial thinking has been weaponised against trans people, although I note it often comes with a suggestion that this is just the start, or people are being softened up, or there is some kind of elite with a broader more insiduous agenda using trans people as their first play.

I believe that conspiracy theories have been weaponised to support the extreme ends of the TRA movement via the misuse of human rights movements and legislation.

Ordinary trans people as well as LGB and intersex people are suffering as a result of the inevitable backlash

I believe that conspiracy theories have been weaponised to support the extreme ends of the TRA movement via the misuse of human rights movements and legislation.

Ordinary trans people as well as LGB and intersex people are suffering as a result of the inevitable backlash

This is sadly very true.

@hoodathunkit

I'd say that is verging on conspiracy theory, and is an example of how conspiratorial thinking has been weaponised against trans people, although I note it often comes with a suggestion that this is just the start, or people are being softened up, or there is some kind of elite with a broader more insiduous agenda using trans people as their first play.

I believe that conspiracy theories have been weaponised to support the extreme ends of the TRA movement via the misuse of human rights movements and legislation.

Ordinary trans people as well as LGB and intersex people are suffering as a result of the inevitable backlash

@hoodathunkit

I believe that conspiracy theories have been weaponised to support the extreme ends of the TRA movement via the misuse of human rights movements and legislation.

Which conspiracy theories? I'm genuinely interested in what conspiracy theories you think trans people have weaponised?

Doesn't Occam's Razor suggest that what is actually going on is a legal disagreement about how to interpret the exemptions in the Equality Act which have rarely been tested in court when it comes to trans people and so are open to speculation, rather than it all being some elaborate conspiracy by shadowy TRAs brainwashing lawyers into misrepresenting the law?

Winesalot

Sonia Poulton was promoted, alongside Shaun Attwood, as the golden girl and boy of BNT

Comparing the situation to youtube or any other platform is not right.

Poulton has been promoted as a central figure in the BNT brand prior to the site going live.

Poulton was and is a central talking head on the site.

Poulton's buddy Attwood hired a sex worker to service him and his bisexual bride on his wedding day. The escort had a problem with drug use. She proceeded to hoover up the very strong cocaine Attwood gave her, performed sex acts on Attwood and his bride. She then opened her heart up to Attwood and his bride about how she was new to the business, missed her child who was staying with her parents, and dong a job she didn't want to do. She and wanted to be their friend and travel with them to Arizona. So they kicked her out once they had finished with her. Which Attwood seems to think is funny.

I have to go now, but Poulton is a fascinating character to study for people interested in the strange alliances of the alternative media IMO

Which conspiracy theories? I'm genuinely interested in what conspiracy theories you think trans people have weaponised?

Pushed for time and running late

I do not think that trans people have weaponised conspiracy theories

I think they have been used as weapons in someone else's war

happy to explain more in detail, just don't have time now

jj1968

Typing this as I'm getting ready to go out, very pushed for time

To answer your question, although I believe you misread my post initially, I believe that the TRA movement has been infiltrated by sinister forces that push it to extremes that alienate most people including many trans people themselves

This clip from the longer video I posted above explains how this activity, astroturfing, works

I do not believe all the twitter accounts posting abusive messages like "Suck on my girl-dick bitch!" to JK Rowling were from real trans people. Many were produced by troll farms.

It is not just the TRA movement that has been astroturfed, feminsm, MRSa, animal rights, environmental movements, anti-trafficking movements, anti-child abuse movements - all have been astroturfed.

Sorry that's all I have time for right now but I hope it has clarified my position

@hoodathunkit

Fair enough, I would be interested to know what you think if you have time later though.

I suspect one reason why organised conspiracy theorists are all over the GC movement is they recognise conspiratorial thinking when they see it, and so are actively attempting to recruit.

Umm yeah. This line is interesting. And, dare I say it, a little conspiracy like!

Sonia Poulton appearing on the Sputnik show on the Russian news / propaganda channel RT

The Russian media is all over the TRA issue, as one might expect

Sorry lol, didn't see your reply.

I agree that a lot of the most extreme abusive stuff on twitter, on both sides of the debate, often comes from malign actors. We can only speculate about Russian bots and the like, but it is unfortunately the nature of the internet, and there's plenty of bored 4chan types and trolls who wind people up often for little reason other than their own amusement. I also think that misogyny is endemic online, and it's not just Rowling who has been on the end of it but any woman, including trans women who speak out on controversial issues has faced similar abuse. But I don't think there's any real evidence of an orchestrated plot, just the mess that anonymous social media has the potential to become.

There's another dimension to the nature of the debate online which is that for probably the first time in history adults are seeing how teenagers talk when adults aren't around. The sad fact is that 'suck my dick'', or 'go suck a dick;' are very commonly used phrases amongst young people in the US. They say this stuff to each other all the time. They tell each other to die in a fire all the time. I saw a twitter thread of obviously very young people who were utterly mystified why a gender critical account had taken offence to a gif posted to them of some cartoon character with a big gun saying die terf or something. To them it was just the way they communicate and they were astonished it could be seen as a genuine death threat, whereas I can fully understand why it was. I remember being that age and teenagers said terrible things to each other and about people, but they rarely said them in front of adults. Now that is all in public view and it's shocking to older generations, and also really unhelpful from a trans perspective, but I'm not sure it's about organised malign forces in a lot of cases, it's just kids being kids and winding people up, or trying to shock and all the rest of the boundary pushing behaviour young people have always engaged in.

Fair enough, I would be interested to know what you think if you have time later though.

Thanks

It would be a pleasure to have a discussion about this

I'm really late so bye for now :)