Julie Bindel - article on allies

[Goosefoot]

Thought people might be interested in discussing this:

[https://unherd.com/2020/10/feminisms-dangerous-new-allies/]]

We've talked about this a lot here - I'm not sure Bindel has really said anything as worthwhile or interesting as lot of the regular posters here have, it seems a little one dimensional to me.

Maybe because she's really stuck on the left-good right-bad thinking and doesn't really consider whether there has been a change within those categories at all, or why the left has struggled with certain problems. It seems to me she sees it as almost random, and if we just take out the TRA stuff things can go back to normal.

I daresay there are some individual organisations that it might be best for anyone to stay away from. Organisations organising violence would be a no-go for me, for example, and I'd criticise people for working with them in most scenarios I can imagine (though it can get trickier when you get into questions around "freedom fighters" in repressive political regimes and such, which maybe goes to show that it is difficult to make very generalised pronouncements.)

But "right wing" is pretty generalised. And I find the claim that anyone who is from the right wing believes, for example, in the most extreme sort of 1950s sex roles a little hyperbolic.

I also wonder why it is Bindel, given all the writing she's done on sex work and prostitution over the years, doesn't see that there is an element on the left that is nothing new that fully embraced the sex positive movement, and that that type of thinking has been a strong element in a lot of the opening up around sexuality as well, much as that might be uncomfortable. For many people, the acceptance of casual sexual relationships is very much coming from the same stream of thought as acceptance of prostitution as a valid work choice. Ideologically, that has come out of the left since the 60s, back to the time she is pointing to as the left having been good for women.

Part of the issue might be that she seems to have very little separate economic thought, though maybe she just doesn't write about that. But I don't think that it should escape someone looking at these political phenomena that at the same time some leftist feminists are allying with some right organisations or becoming interested in some right-wing arguments, many of the people who traditionally were part of the labour movement are also voting on the right. It's not chance that these things are happening at the same time.

@EvenSupposing

Who's 'they'? Is it Sonia? Or Stephanie Davies-Arai?

Both. Sonia Poulton is clearly very involved with the site and Stephanie Davies-Arai agreed to be interviewed in a video which began with an advert for a fellow Brand New Tube contributer who is an antisemite and holocaust denier. Transgender Trend are linking to Brand New Tube on twitter which literally contains Nazi propaganda on the front page. Harry Miller and Posie Parker have also both appeared on the site.

Julie Bindel also tweeted: The problem is the so-called left abandoned women but also abandoned any notion of the left:
twitter.com/bindelj/status/1315705705509330948

I'm seeing this argument a lot. It's very seductive and I really, really want to believe it, but it's a bit too 'no true trans / no true Scotsman' for comfort. I'm afraid I'm closer to the view that the left has always been authoritarian and always treated women like shit, but that I chose not to see it until now.

It’s the ‘we’ll get to your lady issues once the Revolution is won’ mentality except the Revolution is never won

If women’s issues coincide with what benefits men then fine but if they don’t then women can get to the back of the queue

I think there is a big difference between what I think of as "proper" feminists/lefties and people like me. The proper ones read books about politics and feminism and so they are basing their views on sociological theories.

I am not from that kind of background, the only book I have read like that was Dworkin's Pornography.

I simply listen to what current activists and politicians are saying and decide whether I agree with them or not, based on pretty simple principles of fairness and decency.

That's why, when "the left" start pretending they don't know what a woman is i challenge that. It doesn't matter to me who is doing the interviewing or who else agrees with me.

I am broadly left wing but my thoughts are always my own.

SpartacusAutisticus - Thank you for posting that link to Dr Em's piece. Lots of food for thought in that article - and the image is chilling

I suppose I'm just not clear whether it has any bearing on whether men can become women. I mean even if every GC feminist in the world jackboots up it makes very little difference to the underlying issues doesn't it?

Feminism does not belong to the Left. Try starting from that point and 'allies' won't matter. Feminism is for all women not some cosy cabal of correct thinking Left women to allow or disallow anyone else.

I think conflating the US and the UK right is wrong. I know UK right aren't great for women, but I can't imagine them rolling back abortion rights for example? I don't think that's likely anyway.

But more importantly, if abortion rights were rolled back, wouldn't they be easier to fight when we can say who we are fighting for? I don't understand how we can vote for a party that openly wants to end "women" as a category of people and remove single sex spaces and everything else. I don't see how that's a better option.

I should say, all this is a bit above me. When people talk of leaving the Left, I don't really know what they mean. Voting Tory instead of Labour, or does it mean leaving the Labour party if they were previously a member (and presumably voting Tory)? Julie's article sounds like she means talking to and working with groups affiliated with the Right, and ruling that out seems a bit extreme to me.

For me - I haven't joined, let alone voted for another party and have no plans to make any 'alliances'. I'm in the UK where GRA reform is now thankfully off the table and there's no real prospect of a general election for 4 years so I see no reason to hurry. In the meantime I shall read what I like and I will listen and talk to whoever I like - it is none of the left's business.

That's not to say I will never vote left of centre again - it's possible. But I no longer regard Labour as my natural party, and that is entirely down to them and them alone.

I suppose that's a rather pompous way of saying I have become a floating voter! Which is funny really as I never used to understand them at all and yet here I am.

@Floisme

It's like having an ex who's dumped you but still insists on following you around and trying to control your life.

Yes!

We have been clearly and conclusively dumped, and yet even though they ended the relationship, they're following us around, accusing us of cheating on them, if we so much as look at any other group's proposals.

I am left wing (soft left) and understand where Julie is coming from. I'm generally in favour of staying shtum on inter-feminist bickering as I don't feel we have so many allies we can afford to split the movement down the middle. I'm also opposed to purity spirals.

That said, I am surprised that no-one on this thread has acknowledged that for people like Julie (lesbian) and me (Jewish), it's not about ideological purity, primarily, it's about safety.

Maybe if you're a straight white woman who is not a member of any minority group, you can hang out with the far right on sites that promote the Nazis and think 'the end justifies the means'. Or even 'Ooh, aren't I a rebel,' or 'This is a bit of a laugh'.

But I can't. There's nothing funny about neo-Nazis to me. And Julie repeatedly states that people or groups who pretend to be women's allies over the conflict between women's and trans rights but who are using that as a Trojan horse to repeal lesbian and gay rights, pose a very real threat to her and the rest of the LGB community. So if you're happy dumping on other threatened groups because it doesn't affect you, whether you call yourself left or right or neither, think again about whether that's who you actually want to be.

I used to follow Sonia Poulton on Twitter. I then discovered she was a batshit conspiracy theorist and as far as I'm concerned...no.

I'm not going to spend my time publishing articles about Poulton (and I'm no Julie Bindel so probably no-one would read them if I did!). But I'm certainly going to walk fairly fast in the opposite direction.

Look, GC feminism is a broad church, which is as it should be. But whatever your views on the left, and I'm pretty bloody critical of the party that allowed itself to be taken over by Corbyn and his anti-Semitic thugs, I don't feel that's any excuse to embrace the far right either.

At the risk of sounding like a TRA here, not everything is binary. In politics, left and far right are not the only options. Centrism (albeit without a clear party to cohere round) is also an honourable option. You can leave the batshit left without feeling the need to therefore join the batshit right either!

@Kantastic

There is actual Nazi propaganda one click from Transgender Trend's twitter feed. They are actively promoting a far right website. They know what's on that site, they have made the choice to promote it and appear on it. This isn't about the Spectator or the Tories but dangerous and potentially violent groups and individuals on the extreme right. And for what, to promote gender critical activism to conspiracy theorists and holocaust deniers. Do you really want them in your movement? Surely there are some lines you think shouldn't be crossed?

See this pic as an example of what's on the front page of Brand New Tube right now

Yes.... and did Transgender trend get any say in the ads at all? Kind of like, should I post anywhere on social media where an ad could be shown near my post that I have no control over. Even on MN, I might post and it lands just above a post from an advertiser I don’t agree with at al ...

Sounds a touch extreme there. If I give an interview, I could not expect to control the ads the site or the shows producer shows. That isn’t how it works.

@jj1968 - if true, that's extremely disappointing - Transgender Trend do so much good, but their ability to do good is based on their being the rational, sensible grown ups in the room, who care about safeguarding.

That is not consistent with connecting with a Nazi hate site.

Is this definitely true? It would seem very out of character for them. Can anyone confirm?

See this pic as an example of what's on the front page of Brand New Tube right now

I just went there and that's not what I see on the front page. I assume, jj, that this is the content you've been seeking out and the algorithm's giving you what you asked for. Consider me appropriately disgusted.

@Kantastic

See this pic as an example of what's on the front page of Brand New Tube right now

I just went there and that's not what I see on the front page. I assume, jj, that this is the content you've been seeking out and the algorithm's giving you what you asked for. Consider me appropriately disgusted.

Scroll down to the section marked SWEETEEZZ. Not an algorithm, I just checked it with a VPN.

Which women/ women's group is jj1968 slagging off today? There are so many it's hard to keep up

it’s a major own goal to decide to work with people who would deny women their bodily autonomy, who are anti-gay, who consider trans people to be freaks, and who are more likely to show bigotry towards marginalised groups.

And who is denying women their bodily autonomy?
Who is reducing women to uterus havers?

Surely as feminists we should be pulling together. I’m uncomfortable with bigotry to those who believe in religion, it’s not a good look.

Xyzzy I’d take anything jj says with an entire saltmines worth of salt

I’ve just been on transgender trends twitter & website & colour me shocked but I’m not confronted with Nazi propaganda

And yes wines exactly!! for some reason mumsnet fwr has adverts for stonewall trans work the other week but I think it’s safe to assume fwr isn’t a hotbed of trans activism.

@Winesalot

Yes.... and did Transgender trend get any say in the ads at all? Kind of like, should I post anywhere on social media where an ad could be shown near my post that I have no control over. Even on MN, I might post and it lands just above a post from an advertiser I don’t agree with at al ...

Sounds a touch extreme there. If I give an interview, I could not expect to control the ads the site or the shows producer shows. That isn’t how it works.

The entire website is riddled with antisemitism and Covid denial and has been since it started. They chose to appear on there.