Times: Chemist sells hormones for kids online

[Malahaha]

I don't think this is a share token. Still haven't mastered the art.

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/chemist-sells-hormones-for-trans-children-online-cbgtxlbdr?fbclid=IwAR0ocQdGvaFBfucRwkSlnanlQlhiOi6eH8X3uVprlH7fj8Y-WOSCdoXeOSY

Rather than attacking the company, the boards should have been encouraged to work with them as an alternative means, as this would not only provide a private (and very affordable) option for people, but would have relieved some of the pressure off the NHS services AND could have been monitored more closely.

This doesn't sound unreasonable in principle, but this particular company is unsuitable for this for a number of reasons.

GenderGP was set up by Helen Webberley. In 2018, she was prosecuted for running an illegal clinic, found guilty, fined, and as a result now has a criminal record.

Even before this, she was being investigated for prescribing testosterone to a 12 year old girl, and was subsequently suspended from practising in the UK. Her husband, also a medical doctor, took over the prescribing until he, too, was suspended. Both are still suspended and investigations continue.

Are there no other private doctors in the UK who work in this area?

Striking her off would only prevent her working in the U.K. as a doctor

I don't think this is quite right. If you are struck off in one country you would find it very difficult to register in another (certainly within Europe). I read somewhere that HW is currently working in a "non-medical advocacy capacity" or something like that so presumably the Webberleys have hired registered Doctors to fill out prescriptions for patients and carry out the medical consultations etc. I still don't think it'll go well for HW. She has zero insight which obviously makes her a risk to patients.

@Signalbox - it is right. The GMC has no powers at all to prevent a struck off doctor practising elsewhere in the world. They would tell another regulator if asked. The doctor should tell the overseas regulator. But the final decision rests with that regulator. If it's unfortunately one where the they're not so stringent as UK, most of Europe, Canada, Australia etc the doctor could work and the GMC couldn't do anything.

Interesting they have done some investigating, wonder what prompted it?

Quite. Some of the replies about the mirror are, interesting

twitter.com/lilystringworm/status/1314644491274461185

Because kids being fasttracked to strong medicatio by someone who is suspended to start with, is not any kind of important issue eh. Of course not.

This one I find a bit upsetting in all honesty

twitter.com/SophieTews/status/1314549786842927104

'Cis' people shouldn't be concerned that this kind of shit is going on. So many seem to be convinced that Webberlys way is perfectly fine and normal and its just people attacking trans people that have caused the investigation, rather that Webberlys practise being..dodgy as fuck.

Still trying to frame this whole thing in a way I might better understand given I have had issues with massive waiting lists and stuff yself but for other reasons. I cannot imagine people kicking off and crying disablism or something, if an online opiate shop got shut down. Of course, the opiates are helpful to those in pain. It takes months to get them the proper way so we should just allow such places to operate ad if not, anyone who complains is just disablist? Its even fine to fill kids with these drugs, as kids have pain conditions too. Its disgusting that people are concerned that this is happening even though it doesn't affect the people who are horrified by the situation (even if their kids are buying frm there, its for their own good so leave them be, bigt!) and its clearly just a load of people wanting others to suffer longterm pain as they hate them. There is nothing to be concerned about, and of course its a great thing that such GPs exist who are willing to 'colour outside of the lines' as the wait for pain clinics is long and pain conditions can make people more likely to self harm due to their very nature. So piss off and leave me alone to get my morphine online after nothing but a skype convo with someone who is currently suspended in the UK, who is so concerned about people who are in pain that they moved to another country and found a loophole in order to keep supplying me and people like me with strong pain medications, for a high cost also but she really just cares about us unlike anyone else, honest! Unlike those who think medical pathways should be evidence based and procedures followed properly, even if that might mean a bit of a wait. If you disagree, you are just mean and disablist and you are taking away the lifeline of many people in pain, I hope you are proud of yourselves, you have driven me to visit the dealer down the street instead now, by being concerned about me buying online. All your fault. And the fault of my GP who did not immediately grant me my wish of morphine when I said I was in pain, and instead referred me to somehwere I might get other help (like physio) rather than just given the meds immediately, which takes even longer and is much much worse! Give me the medication, I know better that medically qualified people, they are just out to get me, and people like me clearly, as are the public who were horrified to learn of the existence of an online site that fast tracks people onto morphine or stronger as why should we ever have to wait?!

Like, it sounds ridiculous. While tis true waiting lists are massively shit, its never a good thing for others to find loopholes to sell medication that you possibly shouldn't even have or could even potentially give you more problems than you started with. I really really understand what its like waiting for proper help. I still will not agree that the answer is allowing people like Webberly to continue skirting the rules, the rules are there for a reason.

Actually the statement from gender gp itself is more disturbing than a "bugger off cis people" tweet.

www.gendergp.com/gendergp-proud-to-support-trans-community-response-to-journalist/

It can take up to 3 weeks for them to prescribe puberty blockers or hormones.

They will prescribe blockers from 12 years old.

They treat the condition not the age of the person.

but when i see people opposing opening up more GICs that hurts. that's a direct assault on my ability to access what i need to live a healthy, full life.

I have to say, I have not seen many at all oppsed to increasing availability of healthcare for trans people? Infact, when the GRA stuff resulted in more trans healthcare being pledged, I saw many on here happy about this. It was transactivists who were kicking off about that result! Where to be honest, I would have thought that would help much much more than anything else. Given the reaction and how Truss is transpobic for this apparently, I assumed I must be wrong that it was a good thing that more centres were being done. Apparently thats not what transpeople wanted (according to TRAs anyway) as what was wanted was selfID instead. A little odd really, given te main concern seemed to be lack of access to healthcare and long waiting lists.

Fucking hell, just read the statement..

UP TO 3 weeks for meds?! Would have thought 3 weeks was a flukey quick prescribe, one in a thousand kind of thing if any at all. Not the norm and indeed, the target?!

First time I've ever gotten level headed responses on the internet :) .

@Winesalot
And why is GD desperation so bad that people turn to internet prescriptions?

I understand where you're coming from and in most cases to do with prescriptions I would agree with you. The main issue here is that the earlier treatment starts, the more you get out of it. Even after puberty is finished, I recall a study that showed the earlier someone transition, the more likely that even bone density/mass will be effected; resulting in...a let's say... more confidence building transition shape. If you can get in before puberty then all the better.
And here in lies the problem.

I want to agree with you and say that GenderGP are horrifically in the wrong. I do believe their treatments to be safe but at the same time the service was far too accessible. Good for those who are 100% going to benefit from their service but bad for the few who unfortunately regret their transition. I also don't want them to shut down because regardless of the problems, they help a lot of people. Children included.
So, a difficult situation for children and parents. Wait 3/4 years (in distress) + a year of appointments before hormones can start with NHS, hit puberty and deal with it's irreversible (without surgical intervention) effects but get a decent chance to actually talk with someone who will actually talk it out fully with you (or your child) in a thorough manner.
OR
Get Started. Like... now.

Now apply anything in life to the concept of long winded and painful vs quick and reckless and see if we can spot a pattern. I'm not arguing for or against. It's not an issue that will get sorted here nor is there a 100% right or wrong. Just wanted to give an insight.

@testing987654321

Actually the statement from gender gp itself is more disturbing than a "bugger off cis people" tweet.

www.gendergp.com/gendergp-proud-to-support-trans-community-response-to-journalist/

It can take up to 3 weeks for them to prescribe puberty blockers or hormones.

They will prescribe blockers from 12 years old.

They treat the condition not the age of the person.

I mixed a lot of adult/children stuff in last post but just wanna highlight the fact that a lot of what happens at puberty is irreversible. This is the logic behind it. Whether it's right or wrong depends on whether they were right/wrong on the fact they were transgender or not. GD is a small % in the first place and regret is an even smaller %. Doesn't change if GenderGP is right or not but again I just wanted to provide food for thought.

medium.com/@notCursedE/the-gendergp-situation-bfa03becb434

A transactivists take on it all. Interesting, and I actually mean that. This bit though..

The email and tweets they sent out claim that due to negative media attention, the Pharmacy Regulator have stopped the chemist they use from honouring prescriptions. In short this means that the chemist will no longer be able to send out any medications from GenderGP prescriptions.

I have contacted the Pharmacy Regulator to ask them for a first hand explanation as to why they have chosen this course of action. However they have so far fobbed me off by saying “The matter is still ongoing. We will get back to you when we have anything further”. Needless to say this answer isn’t sufficient, and seems to imply that they don’t actually have a reason yet. Which is frankly terrible, and seems to imply that the regulator have reacted to negative media attention without due care for those whose lives rely on the service.

Because the regulator will not give indepth answers to randomers contacting them about an ongoing investigation, they clearly have no reason for doing what they did, and infact only did it because of a negative press story. This is pure fantasy. Things do not work that way, at all.

The main issue here is that the earlier treatment starts, the more you get out of it. Even after puberty is finished, I recall a study that showed the earlier someone transition, the more likely that even bone density/mass will be effected; resulting in...a let's say... more confidence building transition shape. If you can get in before puberty then all the better.
And here in lies the problem.

And here in lies the problem indeed. To me, (and I think many others on this thread) treatment for this distress should involve much mental health and comorbidity assessment rather than medication from the start. So, yes medicalisation should be a long way down the line. Studies have shown that not dealing with these issues and comorbities is incredibly dangerous to mental health. I am sure you too have read this.

As far as early treatment for confidence building transition shape, this is where I will not agree. Why isn’t there more ‘bandwidth’ expanding going on in the trans community to discourage the need for children to be put on track for so much physical damage. Really? Is it really acceptable for children to not be able to experience orgasm, ever? And have their lives shortened. All to fit stereotypes that should be abolished?

If your doctor doesnt have whats best for your healthcare in mind you should absolutely try to find one who will. I intend to start creating a resource list of GPs who are known to be very accommodating and supportive of their trans patient’s needs.

I think this is whats known as doctor shopping? And is generally considered a Very Bad Thing, in any other circumstance.

I find it odd how GPs who are not willing to jump straight to medication, do not have whats best for the patients healthcare in mind according to transactivist types.

I will be creating a guide to self-medication and sources you can obtain medication from as I gather that information.

I do wonder with what other medical condition, such focus on self medicating would be a good thing apparently. I think this is a large part of the 'problem' with young teens and such actually. Go online, see a bunch of stuff like this, and it almost seems normal to just medicate with what other random people tell you to do?! Its so fucking dangerous. Drugs are more importat than any other treatment that may actually be better for you as an individual (I agree medication and transition will likely be the best path for some people, but the HCP should be absolutely sure in their mind that its right for the patient, not bullied into it..or being basically lied to by patients who have read online exactly how to answer questions to get 'the required result' ). Any doctor not willing to instantly dole out drugs is not looking out for your interests. Again, I cannot think of any area where it is expected doctors just give the patient what they ask for instead of what they think might help them! Its just so..different from every single area of healthcare, and the expectations also are hugely different. The assumption that its just because press, GPs etc are just 'out to get' trans peple is bizarre. 2 year waiting lists are probably about average, if not a LOT quicker than treatment for many other conditions.

I recall a study that showed the earlier someone transition, the more likely that even bone density/mass will be effected; resulting in...a let's say... more confidence building transition shape.

Are you suggesting abnormally low bone density is considered a good thing?

Puberty is how people mature from childhood to become adults. It affects the whole body and the brain. This idea that some people are "really" trans is extremely dangerous.

Yes, some people really struggle to come to terms with their maturing physical bodies, that doesn't mean anyone else should "affirm" these ideas.

I find it awful that adults who have chosen extreme body modification are pushing children down the same route with no idea of the effects of these drugs long term.

AH this has been updated since I loaded it it seems..

Update from GGP 09.10.20 20.00 hours: At the end of what has been a week full of uncertainty for our service users, we are absolutely delighted to be able to deliver some good news. GenderGP has identified a number of pharmacy solutions which will provide additional support to all of our service users — of all ages — while Clear Chemist hones the process by which it will operate moving forward. We would like to thank the GenderGP community for its support and patience during these challenging few days.

Well seems another way around the system has been found. Yippee for procedure and healthcare eh.

I genuinely find this terrifying. The thought of where I could have ended up, had my consition been when I was younger and more naive and trusting, had I had managed to find some service online where I could buy pain meds, and had multiple people in my support network/'friendship group' convincing me that thats the best way to go as my GP is unlikely to ever help and everyone will stand in my way, any doctor who will not leap straight to meds is against me and people like me, and the only way I will ever be treated is to go backdoor in this way. I have a feeling I would be in a dark place right now.

www.pharmacyregulation.org/news/concerns-relating-clearchemist

Very unsure where

We also expect pharmacy owners to make sure they do not work with online providers who are trying to circumvent the regulatory oversight put in place within the UK to ensure patient safety throughout the healthcare system.

fits with the statement about everything getting sorted out and don't worry people, our methods will be ongoing still as we have found another way to circumvent the usual processes!

@testing987654321

Actually the statement from gender gp itself is more disturbing than a "bugger off cis people" tweet.

www.gendergp.com/gendergp-proud-to-support-trans-community-response-to-journalist/

It can take up to 3 weeks for them to prescribe puberty blockers or hormones.

They will prescribe blockers from 12 years old.

They treat the condition not the age of the person.

They seem to suggest that they are treating children as just small adults and have exactly the same needs and risks.

That should scare the hell out of everyone, if thats the level of their medical acumin.

Also this.
Treatment for trans young people saves lives – FACT. Delaying access to treatment causes irreversible physical damage and mental distress.

Is this a 'fact' or an opinion? What evidence is this based on?

How are you causing 'irreversible physical damage' if you are not medically intervening either with drugs or surgery? Remind me someone.

@Aesopfable

I recall a study that showed the earlier someone transition, the more likely that even bone density/mass will be effected; resulting in...a let's say... more confidence building transition shape.

Are you suggesting abnormally low bone density is considered a good thing?

Sorry, that was misleading. I'm talking both ways. and only towards CIS levels. Nothing drastic. Just saying the the form becomes more masculine/feminine even at bone level which is obviously desirable and was only one example of why 'earlier is preferable.

Also with what @Winesalot was saying... I agree and disagree. In the end it comes down, at least from experience of myself and those I know, to whether or not you're passable. Which I would say comes down to being accepted as preferred gender / not harassed as trans. Puberty goes in the wrong direction and provides 'markers' that will follow you forever. Perhaps a mix of 'self-image' (which is currently a hot topic for adolescents anyway) and 'markers' that set you up for abuse.

Aaaaand, from the studies (granted not read them all and not too many overall), but from what I've read there is no evidence that lifespan is shortened. Hormones are natural part of life at the end of day even if they go against your birth sex. Even less complications earlier in life. In fact, there's a good chance that going Male to Female might even increase life expectancy in the same way as CIS. but that really is speculation and obviously only applied on an average scale. .

Delaying access to treatment causes irreversible physical damage

Ummmm! How does delaying medication cause irreversible physical damage to a healthy body? This is an outrageous statement to make. In fact, the mental health aspect is problematic too if they are referring to only affirming treatment and not in-depth mental health treatment.

Statements like this should be what the activists are shouting down in the name of advocating for better health care.

"in the end it comes down to whether or not you're passable". That was poorly worded and misguided as well. My apologies
. I'm tired and not used to arguing the issue. Just trying to get on with life and things got stressful last couple days. Was hoping to vent a little and ended up trying to help add some information as to why some are using the service for their children.
I don't know if it's right or wrong, only that I know most going through transition regret not doing it sooner and are probably projecting onto children who are in a similar position.

@Winesalot

Delaying access to treatment causes irreversible physical damage

Ummmm! How does delaying medication cause irreversible physical damage to a healthy body? This is an outrageous statement to make. In fact, the mental health aspect is problematic too if they are referring to only affirming treatment and not in-depth mental health treatment.

Statements like this should be what the activists are shouting down in the name of advocating for better health care.

Didn't say damage. Talking 'markers' (can't think of a more appropriate word right now). Whether its breasts for Trans male or adam's apple / broad shoulders for Trans female. Not at much you can do about this once you've grown into your body.

Puberty goes in the wrong direction and provides 'markers' that will follow you forever.

You have a choice of either no puberty or puberty. No puberty isn't 'going in the right direction'.

I'd like to read these studies saying all these things to expand my reading. Could you name them or link them please?

Not even sure that last post ended in english... *Not much you can do about these features once they have developed.

I don't know if it's right or wrong, only that I know most going through transition regret not doing it sooner and are probably projecting onto children who are in a similar position.

Yes. The reasons for this projection needs to be honestly discussed and the damage that it is causing should be too.

And the best methods in treating the distress in the current children should be indentified, after gaining a thorough understanding of any differences in why they are suffering distress. And individualized every single time.

I agree and disagree. In the end it comes down, at least from experience of myself and those I know, to whether or not you're passable.

This is a part that concerns me though in all honesty. Yes, 'treatment' when younger is all about passing when older. Or thats the way trans adlts seem to put it?

But, this is basically aesthetics V medical issues. Huge medical issues if the person does turn out not to be trans as an adult. Unfortunately, we have no clue how many young transitioners this applies to as its seemingly not allowed to find out, for some reason where really, anything more we can learn about making sure the treatment is right for everyone is a good thing. But no, detransition is something that must always be made out to be a golddust situation, whilst blocking any actual research into it.

I don't see issues as such in adults chosing what to do with their bodies. But the way I have seen this pushed on kids on the liked of AskTransgender and such chills me to the bone sometimes. Its not uncommon for a poster to be questioning gender stuff, and have a swarm of people coming on to 'just inform them' that meds when younger are the best way to go, else it will be harder to pass, and also that others like them often sontemplate or try to cmmit suicide if not medicated, and on and on and on. Coaching for what to say for referals, and things like that is concerning also, as if the person really was trans, why would they need coaching in exactly what to say and how to behave in order to get on the medical pathway, surely giving honest answers would be the same result, assuming transition was the correct path for them.

Don't get me wrong, medical ethics not being followed with adults is a problem also. But moreso when kids are invlved, and this whole puberty blocker thing just strikes me as a huge medical scandal waiting to happen tbh, and one of the main problems I see is the likes of the HS peddling for ages and ages that they were totally harmless and fully reversible, when all evidence seems to say the total opposite to this. NHS no longer lies about this, but they did for ages.