Times: Chemist sells hormones for kids online

[Malahaha]

I don't think this is a share token. Still haven't mastered the art.

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/chemist-sells-hormones-for-trans-children-online-cbgtxlbdr?fbclid=IwAR0ocQdGvaFBfucRwkSlnanlQlhiOi6eH8X3uVprlH7fj8Y-WOSCdoXeOSY

This is all some perverse sport to you lot I feel. You don't seem to be at all interested in anything except having your own prejudices and fears reinforced and confirmed.

No its not a perverse sport to identify that there have been concerns about how trans ideology erases the visibility, independence and agency of lesbians to assert their own sexual boundaries.

Nor is a perverse sport to point out why people like the webberleys who seek to erode or bypass medical ethics, medical accountability and safeguarding really isn't always in the best interests of people who are trans themselves who are quite frankly being exploited in some cases.

When the arguments you use to defend the webberleys consist of nonsense about left handed people, sweeping bollocks about fwr hating all trans whilst you hypocritically say you dont represent all trans people as one blob, crap about section 28 which you and then simultaneously say that people really really need their drugs and will be so desperate they will buy it off the dark web yet they aren't addicted then maybe the problem is your argument being that weak that it falls apart if its remotely questioned.

You don't care about young girls going on puberty blockers. You just want your hormones. As as long as you can get yours you'll say or support anything to justify it.

@OldCrone
You don't believe trans exists, I've seen you say as much many times. I get that and I sympathise. It's said to be an illness, a perversion, a fetish, etc. etc. and I'd say you believed some or all of those things.
I, as a trans person, can only tell you how often and how much I wished any of that was true, even before I was old enough to have words for it. I'm a very logical, rational person but there is little that is logical or rational about being trans. I don't think anyone truly understands it (let alone me) but that doesn't change my situation at all. I am trans; my choice was to accept it and learn to live with it, or go crazy with self-hatred and alienation.

I'm not a child growing up in the 21st century, so I admit I can't really understand what it would be like to have the words, to know there were others like me, and to expect society to be able to deal with it. But I do know that denying it even exists is harmful for everyone.

I dont see why we are talking about section 28 here at all anyway.

We're not. Mad is. I expect it was the inadvertent word association between 'taught' and 'schools' that set them off.

Unfortunately for mad, they can't demand that Liz Truss reneges and starts insisting on gender stereotypes being the basis for medicalising children, cancelling women who disagree, and demanding there is absolutely no evidence whatsoever to underpin their treatment.

Sorry about that, Mad, but Liz Truss has wised up. Perhaps you'd better write to her about all the left-handed children?

I'm a very logical, rational person but there is little that is logical or rational about being trans. I don't think anyone truly understands it

Unfortunately medicine had to be logistical and rational and cant really be just given because someone feels like it. Otherwise it could do more harm than good to vulnerable people who may (or indeed may not in the case of detransistioners) be trans.

The drugs are being oversold to far too many as a magic bullet to deep and complex feelings which you yourself state we dont really understand.

Even more reason why giving drugs to people in this position isnt necessarily always the best idea.

We need to make sure EVERY patient gets the best possible care and is safeguarded. There should be 'very sad' court cases like Kieras.

Thats the point.

Do no harm. First principle.

That's so right, RedToothBrush.

You don't believe trans exists, I've seen you say as much many times.

Have I? Can you link to some of my posts where I've said that? I don't believe that anyone is literally 'born in the wrong body' if that's what you're referring to.

It's said to be an illness, a perversion, a fetish, etc. etc. and I'd say you believed some or all of those things.

In different individuals it does appear that it can be any of those things.

I don't think anyone truly understands it (let alone me) but that doesn't change my situation at all. I am trans; my choice was to accept it and learn to live with it, or go crazy with self-hatred and alienation.

You appear to have accepted that the best pathway for you is to change the appearance of your body. If that helps you, that's fine. You're an adult. You can make these decisions about your body.

I'm not a child growing up in the 21st century, so I admit I can't really understand what it would be like to have the words, to know there were others like me, and to expect society to be able to deal with it. But I do know that denying it even exists is harmful for everyone.

But since you can't describe what it is, how are we to know the best way to treat these children? You can't find the best medical pathways if you can't describe what it is you're trying to treat. Nobody is literally 'born in the wrong body, so what is a 'trans child'? Is it a mental health condition? Why do these children think their bodies are wrong? What can we do to help them? Drugs and surgery should be the last resort for those who are unable to come to terms with the bodies they have.

^You don't believe trans exists, I've seen you say as much many times. I get that and I sympathise. It's said to be an illness, a perversion, a fetish, etc. etc. and I'd say you believed some or all of those things.
I, as a trans person, can only tell you how often and how much I wished any of that was true, even before I was old enough to have words for it. I'm a very logical, rational person but there is little that is logical or rational about being trans. I don't think anyone truly understands it (let alone me) but that doesn't change my situation at all. I am trans; my choice was to accept it and learn to live with it, or go crazy with self-hatred and alienation^.

I believe there is a psychological condition of gender dysphoria where someone is mentally uncomfortable to a greater or lesser extent with their sexed body. I don't believe it's anything other than that so I don't personally buy into "trans" and no one's account of it has convinced me that people innately are the opposite sex. I also don't think true gender dysphoria is as common as it's claimed to be.

People believe a lot of things, very strongly, that seem real to them. Sometimes they are, sometimes they aren't.

@RedToothBrush et al.
Pretty much all of your statements here are fair and reasonable.

The reason I say I sympathise is because you are all faced with the same stark choice that I was: accept it and deal with it, or don't. Now that Trans is out in the open and not society's dirty little secret anymore, you're stuck with it just as much as I am.(I have very mixed feelings about this.)

The problem with GC (should be "TC" IMO, but whatever) is that whatever you say, whatever logical, rational argument you make, to explain what trans ppl are (dysmorphia, stereotypes, misogyny, creepy abuser, bogeyman, fetish, HSTS, etc.), I'll just shrug and say 'no it's not like that' so you ask why, and I, infuriatingly, shrug again. This continues until one of us runs out of patience and then it usually gets shitty. So you stop asking, agree amongst yourselves whatever you want, and your logical, rational minds are satisfied, but closed. You are in denial, and there can be no constructive dialogue while this is the case. Please don't take this the wrong way, but I don't even bother calling out the half-baked opinions or biased statistics of dubious origins that i see on this site, or the tower of cards you build from them, because no-one here would accept someone like me challenging them. But I understand why you cling to them, just like I understand why my 'side' clings to theirs.

Because there are no 'proper' answers, anyone can take any position for any reason, and trans people are often reduced to mere fodder as much by pro-trans allies as by anti-trans enemies, of which there are many. There are simply not enough trans ppl to be heard by ourselves, and unless we are amplified by others (with who knows what agenda) we mostly get drowned out by almost any other group speaking for or against us. (Interestingly Detransitioners are in a similar boat, and there's even fewer of them). Globally, we are quite possibly outnumbered by JKR's Twitter followers, for God's sake. When we do get in the papers, it's usually for all the wrong reasons.

Most Trans adults, if they are lucky, can just about advocate for themselves. Many don't even want to be visible, let alone be 'activists'. Most of us, believe it or not, don't shitpost awful threatening Tweets, and have little control over those that do. But we are the only group that can cleanly empathise with what an actual trans child feels, if not what a confused or impressionable (or deceitful) c*s child feels. We feel their impotent distress when their care is withdrawn or threatened. We, just as much as you, are "thinking of the children", albeit different children.

None of this solves the fundamental problem of "How do we know this child is really trans?" but this question is being dragged away from the medical profession, who have been largely successful in answering it when they have the time and resources, and into the dreaded Court of Public Opinion, for fair reasons or foul, which is creating more problems than it solves. We are in a situation where we see each other as a threat to children, and we are both right. I am open to suggestions.

Thank you for coming to my TED talk.

The problem with GC (should be "TC" IMO, but whatever) is that whatever you say, whatever logical, rational argument you make, to explain what trans ppl are (dysmorphia, stereotypes, misogyny, creepy abuser, bogeyman, fetish, HSTS, etc.), I'll just shrug and say 'no it's not like that' so you ask why, and I, infuriatingly, shrug again.

We are asking for appropriate justification for the medicalisation of children. A shrug doesn’t cut it funnily enough.

But we are the only group that can cleanly empathise with what an actual trans child feels, if not what a confused or impressionable (or deceitful) cs child feels.*

This isn’t true. Many people can empathise with body dysmorphia.

We feel their impotent distress

Appropriate adjective there, given the effects of puberty blockers.

We, just as much as you, are "thinking of the children", albeit different children.

I think there are genuine adults who want to alleviate the distress of children, albeit in the wrong way IMO, with hormone treatments that don’t work and cause harm. But I also believe there are others who have other reasons.

None of this solves the fundamental problem of "How do we know this child is really trans?" but this question is being dragged away from the medical profession, who have been largely successful in answering it when they have the time and resources, and into the dreaded Court of Public Opinion

No, what has happened is the public has become aware of how trans children are being defined. We are aware that a child can only meet DSM 5 criteria for gender dysphoria with the inclusion of behaviour involving stereotypes. We have become aware that a diagnosis of gender dysphoria - with all the problems making that itself might have - isn’t required for a child to receive puberty blockers. We’ve become aware that doctors have, for a long time, not been “largely successful” but have in fact been ignoring trauma, abuse, depression etc in children. We have become aware that thousands of children have been treated by doctors with puberty blockers despite poor evidence. You may see this as care being dragged away from these “largely successful” doctors, the rest of us see it as sunlight on a practice with poor evidence that has continued unabated and caused physical long term harm to children. It would be convenient for some if it could all go back on the QT and no one asked any questions but we are not going to allow that to happen. Having things out in the open doesn’t create more problems than it solves, the affirmative medical treatment with no evidence or regulation is what has created more problems than it has solved.

Again I don’t understand why trans people aren’t railing against their doctors. They should be asking those doctors why they think trans people don’t deserve evidence-based medicine. They should be asking why they have allowed this treatment course for children to continue despite knowing that it will render them infertile and asexual, and while not knowing what it will do to these children in 30-40 years. They should be asking why they’ve been promised better mental health when the evidence shows hormone treatment and surgery doesn’t improve this.

Why is it we are the bad guys for pointing out to people like you Mad that the medical profession has let you down on a scandalous level? Go talk to them and complain, don’t complain to us.

Mad, your posts suggest, to me at least, that you are blinded by your own needs.

There is no evidence for these treatments of children. Adult males wishing they passed isn't it.

And when you have 76 children in one school identifying as trans, you can't possibly be surprised that parents demand answers.

You appear almost exclusively interested in dealing with symptoms of gender dysphoria. Many women and mothers, gender critically are interested in dealing with the cause. To prevent it from occurring.

It's blisteringly obvious to feminists why girls, particularly, want to transition.

So shrug away. This has been dragged into the sunlight, despite frantic efforts to stop it, and it will be addressed.

Please don't take this the wrong way, but I don't even bother calling out the half-baked opinions or biased statistics of dubious origins that i see on this site, or the tower of cards you build from them, because no-one here would accept someone like me challenging them.

Lol, is that right?

Because there are no 'proper' answers,

How about the group that is so keen on medicalising children actually turn their full attention to finding them. Or do you accept that maybe there is a reason why in the past so much research was defunded, shut down and no further discussion was to be had? Instead of shrugging off the damage and harm to children that may not be trans but that you consider acceptable collateral damage, you use your voice like other transgender people are to fight against the restriction clinicians now face on affirming only treatment. There are some quite prominent transwomen and transmen who are advocating for greater research, for more mental health support and for better safeguarding. Why not add your voice to those who are fighting for answers. Instead of shaming the women who are fighting for answers.

Because, looking at my own daughter’s friends I can tell you there IS a problem. There should have been answers already since a study into this rapid increase was announced 2 years ago and nothing came of it. By the time this current study brings positive change, it may be too late for my daughter’s friends. I put those failures firmly on the doorstep on advocates of affirming only. Where would you lay the blame? Or do you really believe 40% of my daughter’s group of friends are all trans and should be on hormones prescribed via an internet based doctor based in Spain. One who has a great deal of controversy about their practices.

Because these girls have already found ways to get their binders delivered so their parents don’t know. And from what I can tell at least one is being exposed to child sex abuse from her new friends on the internet and has begun showing the others. Next stop self medicating.

So, tell me again how you personally are fighting for answers? not shrugging them off as ‘they are just really trans like left handed people’. Because I am seeing the truths of that cry of ‘no debate’ that led to no research that is letting these young teens down. What are you doing about it?

And I think we have just seen the exact lack of evidence for the course of treatment that is medicalising children. There was nothing put forward except WPATH guidelines. And a NHS barrister handwaving the rape of 12 year olds as an example used to explain consent.

Yes the left hand comment is so revealing.

Apparently empathising with children's impotent distress, whilst explaining why there are more and more of them.

There should be fewer.

Thank you for coming to my TED talk.

Thats all very nice.

Now can we talk about why Stonewall has abandoned gays and lesbians in changing its definition of trans to gender rather than sex, and why this is so huge in its impact. Can we talk about why Stonewall is seeking to remove sex based right protection from woman - particularly where exemptions are allowed for changing, shared accommodation, and domestic violence shelters where we have very vulnerable women. Then can we talk about how Stonewall changed the definition of trans to include not just those suffering from gender dysphoria but also men who like to cross dress and have no intention of taking drugs or having hormones. Then can we talk about why the definition of being a woman is being removed from women to be a feeling not a biological reality when women face discrimination on the basis of their sex rather than gender and how women can not just identify out of their oppression. Then can we talk about why JKRowling has been demonised for raising many of these points by people who haven't even had the courtesy to read what she's written because theyve been told shes a bigot and they are prepared to accept this on face value because they are oh so openminded. Or talk about the abuse of detransitioners you completely deny is happening cos youve got your eyes wide open there. Or perhaps why women on here have been demonised as bigoted about their concerns regarding 'affirmation only pathways' for children and how experimental drugs have been used on children which you, yourself have indulged in.

Maybe after women are actually considered and listened to rather than talked over and dismissed i'll take the comment of how we are close minded rather than being shat on from a great height so that older male transitioners can get what they want without realising that its not up to woman and homosexuals to give up their protections and that sex must remain visible and sexist bullshit gender must not tske over.

Ultimately it does come back to the problem that effeminate men are not taken seriously and are ridiculed by society and that plays into power dynamics and long term psychological issues.

This is all at the expense of other vulnerable groups and frankly thats not ok.

So dont fucking lecture me in a bloody patronising way about how im not open minded. When lobby groups are actively trying to walk over children and safeguarding to achieve their goals i dont have a lot of time for the sheer magnitude of the hypocrisy tbh.

If there's one thing ive learned its its rare you come across some fully immersed in trans dogma who can make an argument which get much past the word I or my.

We share society. Everyone who is vulnerable has a right to be protected and that means balancing needs. And priortising children over everyone else.

Lets be honest womens life experience isnt important. And once theyve had children they are definitely past their usefulness so should just shut the fuck up and suck it up.

Cos thats what your 'ted talk' really says.

Oh and i forgot to mention how women can use the word woman anymore because its offensive but no one is taking apart the word man.

Why is that?

Please don't take this the wrong way, but I don't even bother calling out the half-baked opinions or biased statistics of dubious origins that i see on this site, or the tower of cards you build from them

Im sorry. Could me point me to the direction where anyone who has posted in response to you on this thread has done that, cos looking at present company i dont see anyone who has indulged in some of the bullshit that i dont like on FWR. I see some of the better more reasonable posters here who are simply better at cutting through the crap.

I take HRT prescribed originally by a menopause clinic (I have an unusually late menopause) but wanted an alternative when NHS supply was disrupted. No online pharmacy would supply, even with my GP's knowledge, simply because of my age (over 60).

I've been puzzled as to how people get hormones online, but now I have a better idea.

Its funny this particular thread is about access to drugs.

And that seemingly means advocating for access to drugs at all costs even if this means that children are harmed in the process as the priority is making sure all the adults who want the drugs get the drugs regardless of the consequences and whether they might be at risk if they take those drugs.

Imagine that in another scenario.

And we are not 'open minded'. Cos thats obviously what its all about.

Its revealling and i'll refer back to the cognitive dissonance on addiction.

Imagine that in another scenario.

Yes.... imagine teenagers bypassing NHS services that are, we are told, offering superior care for treatments touted via the internet.

An internet full of glamorized successes and telling each and every one of them that the drugs need to be taken NOW or it will be too late. That people standing in their way (their parents) are haters and uninformed. That everything is so much better after. (And as it may be testosterone, it will feel gooood to start with).

An internet that allows a doctor under review to continue to practice and prescribe treatments for delivery.

Yes.... we deserve our beration because we are not open minded.

Also i'd put there there are two distinct groups in terms of age and sex.

Both are being lumped together in a way which serves one group to the detriment of the other which is much of the problem.

Until this is exploitation is highlighted and the hijacking of the gay and lesbian cause is exposed for the harm its doing to that community then there is going to be a huge ongoing issue that MUST be addressed and can not be ignore.

Thats hardly what im told i believe in that bollocks above.

We are asking for appropriate justification for the medicalisation of children. A shrug doesn’t cut it funnily enough.

A shrug isn't going to cut it in court, like yesterday, certainly.

That shrug is very vocal and does a whole lot of talking.

I'd like to see you debate with James Morton, Red Toothbrush.

You are so articulate, I get stuck with the rage that my rights have been given away and that my daughter will not enjoy the rights which were hard won for the safety, dignity and privacy of all female people.

Plus the whole homophobia - it's just outrageous.

But we are the only group that can cleanly empathise with what an actual trans child feels, if not what a confused or impressionable (or deceitful) cs child feels. We feel their impotent distress when their care is withdrawn or threatened. We, just as much as you, are "thinking of the children", albeit different children.*

None of this solves the fundamental problem of "How do we know this child is really trans?" but this question is being dragged away from the medical profession, who have been largely successful in answering it when they have the time and resources, and into the dreaded Court of Public Opinion, for fair reasons or foul, which is creating more problems than it solves. We are in a situation where we see each other as a threat to children, and we are both right. I am open to suggestions.

They're not different children. They're the same children. Keira Bell was a trans child. She has said that nothing would have convinced her otherwise. And the doctors who treated her were also convinced she was a trans child. But now, you'd say she wasn't a trans child because she's detransitioned.

And the medical profession is not largely successful at distinguishing between 'really trans' and 'not really trans' as we see when someone like Keira detransitions. That's because the diagnosis is built on shrugs and stereotypes rather than objective criteria. It's insane to prescribe strong irreversible medical treatment for life to a child for a condition which can't even be described, let alone diagnosed.

My suggestion is to stop medicating children for an undiagnosable condition. This doesn't affect your right as an adult to modify your body.