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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

PODCLUB: The Intellectual Roots of Wokeness

108 replies

queenofknives · 03/10/2020 08:39

Thread to talk about this podcast where Coleman Hughes talks to James Lindsay and Peter Boghossian about the academic and intellectual origins of the woke ideology.

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queenofknives · 12/10/2020 17:11

That does sound like a great book OneWonders and one I'd like to read. In the bookclub thread we're currently reading The Coddling of the American Mind - discussion starts this weekend. You are more than welcome to join us!

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OneWonders · 12/10/2020 19:53

Thank you!
Yes it was the Coddling that sent me on this "downward" spiral. Which I'm starting to call now an upwards spiral because I seriously thought I was going crazy with all the gas lighting going on. So having a sense of understanding what is going on has helped me.
What I find useful as well are these discussions as I'm trying to understand them better and want to be able to simplify it a little bit as all of them are very academic and sometimes those ideas don't translate well enough if you don't fully understand it.
I'll listen to the coddling again over the week to participate in the discussion.
There was another podcast with Coleman Hughes and Bret Weinstein which I also really enjoyed. Touched on the issues discussed here but came at them from a little different perspective.
Thank you for setting this up queen Smile

queenofknives · 12/10/2020 20:55

Not all, it's a joint effort. Am looking forward to hearing people's thoughts. I know I have a tendency to over-intellectualise when I don't understand something fully but have found having the space to just try and think things out is really helpful. Then posters here have such insightful comments and explanations and ways of putting things back together. It feels really good to be thinking and learning in this way.

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HBGKC · 20/10/2020 09:54

Off the back of The Problem of Race podcast posted above, this is another good one, in which Coleman Hughes reads his review of Kendi's book "How to be an Anti-Racist". He makes various points which are useful in thinking about CRT and systemic racism.

It also put me in mind of various points made on this thread and the one on Coddling, regarding the seeming impossibility of constructive discussion in the current 'intellectual' climate of sidelining/ignoring data/facts/empiricism/objectivity, in favour of unfalsifiable emotional sweeping statements:

"By pivoting from standards of discourse that are universally and independently accountable to our senses and reason, to standards of discourse in which the conclusions that are rendered are not open to challenge or confrontation from the outside, Woke Folk aim to introduce ideas that are effectively immune from criticism. Under a paradigm that values reason and evidence, an interlocutor is welcomed to challenge ideas in a fashion that allows anyone from any walk of life to evaluate concepts. But under a paradigm in which “Lived Experiences,” which are the subjective interpretations of events from one’s demographically-dependent base of “knowledge,” are held as immutable and not open to discussion or debate, all interlocutors are obligated to listen and believe".

The 'standards of discourse' James Lindsay mentions here are unbelievably low in Kendi's book, according to Coleman's analysis.

HBGKC · 20/10/2020 10:04

"Woke Folk aim to introduce ideas that are effectively immune from criticism" = ideological purity = the witch-hunts that are propelled by the rocket fuel that is social media = self-censorship in academia which then spills over into every area of social discourse. Hughes and Loury touch on this in their discussion.

If our university academics and researchers do not feel free and safe to examine, dissect, critique and challenge current modes of thought about racism (or sexism or climate change or any other subject), then an entire generation - that of my children, one of whom has just started university (though thank goodness studying a hard science) - will grow up simply unable to see the wood from the trees. It's rather a terrifying prospect.

MarieIVanArkleStinks · 29/10/2020 21:52

The impermeable language doubtless arises from the fact that Queer Theory is the bastard child of poststructuralism, which uses deliberately impermeable, enigmatic discourse and plays games with language. Judith Butler's a champ at writing barely-decipherable jargon. They're rarely the best writer.

I do still rate Foucault, whose theories on the subtle dissemination and manipulation of power through discourse I still find compelling, and more than monolithic accounts of oppression like Marxism which narrows it all down to economics, or even feminism which narrows it down to sex (sorry FWR board!) but sees its manipulation as multiple, shifting and constant.

Some of his work I think is still valuable for feminists, and also enables us to kick against the BS constraints attributable to gender categories. So it's not all bad, despite where some of this area of theory and its later practitioners have led us (right back up the garden path and full circle into 1950s oppression). Thanks for nothing, Butler.

The law of unintended theoretical consequence can be sticky territory, as Darwin for one has proved.

GrainneMhaol · 30/10/2020 23:27

Thanks Queen of knives

StellaCartoonist · 16/11/2020 13:18

Hi everyone, if you are trying to talk to your friends/ family about Woke ideology, you could try them with my cartoon review of the year, " 2020, The Year We Were All Cancelled!" It is an A4, full colour paperback, free speech and anti- authority throughout. It's now available through Amazon, Book Depository, Booksellers.uk, Barnes & Noble and Goodreads, and more outlets soon, just search by the title.
Sometimes cartoons can reach the spot in a way hours of argument cannot!
Here is a very thoughtful review I am so thrilled with, by Maria at PeakTrans. By all means pass this link on to anyone you think might be interested:
www.peaktrans.org/cancelled-cartoonist-has-produced-a-book-2020-the-year-we-were-all-cancelled/

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