Meet the Other Phone. Only the apps you allow.

Meet the Other Phone.
Only the apps you allow.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

See all MNHQ comments on this thread

Gender Critical = fundamentally right wing (according to Vox)

574 replies

TheRealMcKenna · 29/09/2020 17:34

I know it’s Vox, I know it’s not a ‘reputable’ news source, but this is hilariously bad.

Main points:

  • TERFs calling themselves ‘gender critical’ are akin to white supremacists calling themselves ‘race realists’.
  • Women are oppressed based on gender identity and not biological sex.
  • Most ‘decent’ feminists include trans women in their movement, but a horrid bunch of conservative-allying pro-life supporting homophobic white supremacists don’t.
  • GC feminists Who rely on ‘science’ have abandoned the idea that chromosomes determine sex (this is news to me)
  • GC feminism is mainly a UK phenomenon and is ‘whipped up’ by the horrid Mumsnet site. Everyone else in the world is lovely (apart from those far right pro-life conservatives).
  • GC feminists cite a tiny number of high profile cases to whip up fear and hatred of trans women.
  • GC advocates bully people online, especially on Twitter.
  • GC academics have a terribly large amount of power and influence.

www.vox.com/identities/2019/9/5/20840101/terfs-radical-feminists-gender-critical

OP posts:
CloudyVanilla · 30/09/2020 00:21

@thinkingaboutLangCleg thanks. It's not an easy position to be in as a mumsnetter. I feel I have the right to share my views just as much as other feminists here though so even when there is a pile on/personal attack I feel the need to defend myself.

I'm thinking more about what @BlackWaveComing said though about me equating conservative value and feminist values. I have been berated for apparently doing this, but I do agree that there is a correlation between anti trans values and the right.

I'm a feminist who does not hold trans exclusionary views and I see the parallel mentioned in the article between transphobia/exclusion amongst conservatives and the right , though I may not agree with everything the article says.

I do wonder if because I do not see Trans exclusion as a feminist value that that is why me and @BlackWaveComing are coming to a misunderstanding over aligning feminist views with conservative views.

BlackWaveComing · 30/09/2020 00:21

I think the poster has failed to comprehend how central a critique of gender is to feminism, and the extent to which genderism reifies, rather than challenges, gender.

Gender reification is an anti-feminist project, just as MRAs are anti-feminist.

ByGrabtharsHammerWhatASavings · 30/09/2020 00:25

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

BlackWaveComing · 30/09/2020 00:26

[quote CloudyVanilla]@thinkingaboutLangCleg thanks. It's not an easy position to be in as a mumsnetter. I feel I have the right to share my views just as much as other feminists here though so even when there is a pile on/personal attack I feel the need to defend myself.

I'm thinking more about what @BlackWaveComing said though about me equating conservative value and feminist values. I have been berated for apparently doing this, but I do agree that there is a correlation between anti trans values and the right.

I'm a feminist who does not hold trans exclusionary views and I see the parallel mentioned in the article between transphobia/exclusion amongst conservatives and the right , though I may not agree with everything the article says.

I do wonder if because I do not see Trans exclusion as a feminist value that that is why me and @BlackWaveComing are coming to a misunderstanding over aligning feminist views with conservative views.[/quote]
You begin your argument with an anti-feminist falsehood - that there is a feeling that defines 'woman' (internal gender).

And so we diverge.

You can't sustain a feminist argument from an anti-feminist premise.

That's not a personal slam, btw. It's just how it is. I'd encourage you to go back and examine the premise from which you argue.

I'm critical of gender, feminist, and believe gender dysphoric adults are entitled to dignity and human rights, including health care, the right to housing, employment and freedom from violence.

You can try to.posit me as a conservative for not reifying gender all you like, but you'll still be mistaken.

My politics are leftist, and grounded in observable, material fact.

wellbehavedwomen · 30/09/2020 00:27

@CloudyVanilla

I'm defending women's rights love. Trans women are women.
You know, Cloudy, when I first came to this section, it was to do what you're doing. I went away and looked up all the evidence, to prove how wrong they all were. The problem was, they weren't wrong.

Transwomen are the safest demographic in the country, with half the average murder rate. Some years, no trans people are killed at all. (This should be something to celebrate; instead, we're told there's a murder epidemic.) Women, on the other hand? Two a week killed by a present or former partner, in normal times - it was five a week, in lockdown. We have 1300 men in jail for sex offending, the vast majority against women, at a time when 1.5% of reported offences even see charges, far less convictions - and do we really think women report, most of the time? So that's a fraction of a fraction of what's really happening. How are you able to assert, then, that transwomen suffer more violence? What's the basis of that claim?

Single sex provision is dramatically safer for women. That goes especially for hospitals, btw.

1 in 50 male prisoners identified as women in 2018. In 2016, from a population of 200,000, there were 60 transwomen sex offenders in jail, which is the same, proportionate to population, as any other male. 126 were jailed for such offending that year, from a population of 33 million - men, and it was in excess of 13000. Rhona Hotchkiss, SMP and former prison governor, has stated that there are now more transwomen sex offenders than female sex offenders in Scots prisons. Why are transwomen entitled to access women only spaces in vulnerable settings, if their offending behaviour is that of any other male? That makes no sense. We don't exclude all males from women only spaces to demonise or other them, or because we think all males are violent predators. We do it because, while clearly most men are not predatory and/or violent, almost all violent predators are male. If transwomen are no more nor less likely than any other male to pose a risk - and therefore massively more likely to pose such a risk than female people - why is it discriminatory to exclude them, in a way it isn't with everyone else of that shared biology? Why is a male person's belief about themselves more relevant and important than the safety, dignity and comfort of female people?

Single sex spaces in domestic violence support are markedly better for women. Single sex spaces in homeless shelter support are markedly better for women. Single sex spaces in prisons are not only markedly better for women, but mandated as a basic human rights standard by the UN. Most women in prison are there for non-violent offending, and previous victims of male violence. Many are severely traumatised and almost all are terrified of males. How is it okay to place people of male biology there, let alone violent offenders? It clearly is not. Yet it is happening. Frequently.

Sport is not fair, if you don't segregate by sex. That's so obvious.

When surveyed, most women thankfully agree that we need to respect trans people's rights to live as they feel safe, happy and honest. And when you ask how they feel about sharing personal spaces, or sporting provision, with transwomen who have had no surgery, they're equally clear: the answer is overwhelmingly a no. This is not contradictory. You can respect someone's right to live a safe and happy life, in freedom, as who they want and need to be, while believing that other people also have rights. Even women.

As for your claims that there's already a right to use women's spaces - actually, that guidance was created by a quango, which has since withdrawn it, and it's going to Judicial Review (Google Ann Sinnott, for details). So we'll find out soon, won't we? Right now, nobody knows.

Finally, you say transwomen are women. Okay, then you erase biology when considering whether someone is a woman. I'm sure you also think regressive, sexist stereotypes are worthless, what with your fulminating against heteronormativity. So. Without resorting to sexist stereotype, and with biology already excluded: how do you define a woman? You seem very confident on this, so please do explain. What is the definition?

Here's hoping this doesn't go poof, too.

CloudyVanilla · 30/09/2020 00:31

@BlackWaveComing but the reality is it's the progressives who provide support to trans people. So regardless of the theory, the reality is people are transgender and this is at odds with conservative values.

I don't know if gender theory from the perspective of feminists can adequately explain transgenderism because it relies on the belief that it is solely a social construct that causes people to identify as transgender. How do we know this to be the case? How do we know it is not more akin to sexual orientation? I'm talking about the desire to be the opposite sex, not any physical factors.

If the desire to identify as the opposite gender is so ingrained and strong in transgender people, which I trust that it is because they say so, then it's not good enough to tell them that gender is a social construct and that they cannot be accepted as women.

I don't think we as feminists are advocating for the rights of men by being inclusive of trans women. More than 99% of them are not trans. "Not shilling the rights of men" just seems like such a hollow argument when you look at what it is to be trans in reality.

turnitonagain · 30/09/2020 00:35

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ for repeating deleted message. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

turnitonagain · 30/09/2020 00:35

Sorry misquoted!

BlackWaveComing · 30/09/2020 00:37

[quote CloudyVanilla]**@BlackWaveComing* but the reality is it's the progressives who provide support to trans people. So regardless of the theory, the reality is people are* transgender and this is at odds with conservative values.

I don't know if gender theory from the perspective of feminists can adequately explain transgenderism because it relies on the belief that it is solely a social construct that causes people to identify as transgender. How do we know this to be the case? How do we know it is not more akin to sexual orientation? I'm talking about the desire to be the opposite sex, not any physical factors.

If the desire to identify as the opposite gender is so ingrained and strong in transgender people, which I trust that it is because they say so, then it's not good enough to tell them that gender is a social construct and that they cannot be accepted as women.

I don't think we as feminists are advocating for the rights of men by being inclusive of trans women. More than 99% of them are not trans. "Not shilling the rights of men" just seems like such a hollow argument when you look at what it is to be trans in reality.[/quote]
When there is strong, replicable evidence that gender identity is innate, I'll look at it.

There isn't.

In the absence of such, I'll continue being left wing, feminist, and critical of concepts of both 'natural' and 'innate' gender.

Neither MRAs or TRAs are friends to females.

HecatesHat · 30/09/2020 00:39

Thank you for bringing your strawman argument to the thread turn. I hope you think this is helpful.

CloudyVanilla · 30/09/2020 00:40

@BlackWaveComing but many people believe there is a tangible difference between sex and gender.

If gender can be a social construct, then therefore there must be some element to sympathetically or empathetically feeling a certain way about that gender. The evidence is surely in the fact that trans people exist in the first place? This is where I changed course because I do intuitively feel that there is a divergence between feminist theory and reality. Feminist theory (and you) say there is no, as you put it, internal gender. I disagree. Lots of people actually disagree with the idea that there is no concept of gender outside of biological sex. I'm not saying it is a positive thing, but it is a real thing.

@ByGrabtharsHammerWhatASavings you can't in all fairness berate me for apparently not explaining my view and at the same time say you can't be bothered to read my posts. That's ridiculous.

turnitonagain · 30/09/2020 00:41

The thread is about whether GC feminism is aligned with right wing politics. Where’s the strawman?

caughtalightsneeze · 30/09/2020 00:43

I don't think we as feminists are advocating for the rights of men by being inclusive of trans women. More than 99% of them are not trans. "Not shilling the rights of men" just seems like such a hollow argument when you look at what it is to be trans in reality.

Whose definition of trans are you using? Doesn't sound like Stonewall's...

HecatesHat · 30/09/2020 00:44

@turnitonagain

The thread is about whether GC feminism is aligned with right wing politics. Where’s the strawman?
You implied that posters on FWR are aligned with Trump, religious biggots and rapists. I'll posit that that is fallacious and an extreme position to take.
BlackWaveComing · 30/09/2020 00:45

[quote CloudyVanilla]@BlackWaveComing but many people believe there is a tangible difference between sex and gender.

If gender can be a social construct, then therefore there must be some element to sympathetically or empathetically feeling a certain way about that gender. The evidence is surely in the fact that trans people exist in the first place? This is where I changed course because I do intuitively feel that there is a divergence between feminist theory and reality. Feminist theory (and you) say there is no, as you put it, internal gender. I disagree. Lots of people actually disagree with the idea that there is no concept of gender outside of biological sex. I'm not saying it is a positive thing, but it is a real thing.

@ByGrabtharsHammerWhatASavings you can't in all fairness berate me for apparently not explaining my view and at the same time say you can't be bothered to read my posts. That's ridiculous.[/quote]
Some people believe....lots of things. Not all of which form a pro-woman basis for law.

You believe innate gender is so real and urgent we must place it above sex in terms of societal organisation? The onus is in you to prove that. You are making the unverifiable claim, not me.

Be kind is not evidence. It social pressure. It's not feminist to apply social pressure to females to elevate the needs of males above their own interests.

It's fine if you reject feminism.

turnitonagain · 30/09/2020 00:46

I didn’t imply it. Check out my history. There was a thread here last week where at least two posters said they’d vote Trump if they were American because Biden is TWAW.

When I pointed out Trump’s horrible record on women and the news that had come out about asylum seeking women from Mexico having forced hysterectomies under his leadership I was totally ignored or told TWAW is more important to fight.

HecatesHat · 30/09/2020 00:46

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

BlackWaveComing · 30/09/2020 00:46

Posted too soon. But he honest about it. Don't claim that your progressivism, as you see it, centres the interests of females.

FagashJackie · 30/09/2020 00:52

Just I don't see how trans can be anything other than homophobic. Either you believe in same sex attraction and are ok with it. Or not.

And the rest the sports and medical services pay gaps pensions.

CloudyVanilla · 30/09/2020 00:52

@BlackWaveComing I believe there has been evidence in science and more is emerging. I only have the energy to find this article for now
blogs.scientificamerican.com/voices/stop-using-phony-science-to-justify-transphobia/

For me though, the existence of trans people themselves are evidence that gender identity is real and separate from biological sex. If you deny their experience because it doesn't fit with feminist theory then I have to say I don't know how that isn't just transphobia.

I guess that's the fundamental argument. Trans women do not say they are women because they think they have vaginas. There is obviously something else that causes them to feel strongly enough to live their lives as women despite not being born women. I honestly don't really understand how that constitutes misogyny or erasure on their part. There are TRAs but there are also MRAs and Radfems and religious fundamentalists. I don't know why on here Trans women are always judged by the standards of TRAs. I can't see any reason other than phobia and homophobia, xenophobia etc are again correlated with conservativism so I don't know why there is a strong community of feminists who I would always consider to left wing naturally yet are also okay with transphobia and trans exclusion. It's by no means all feminists so what is the key difference.

wellbehavedwomen · 30/09/2020 00:52

[quote CloudyVanilla]@BlackWaveComing but many people believe there is a tangible difference between sex and gender.

If gender can be a social construct, then therefore there must be some element to sympathetically or empathetically feeling a certain way about that gender. The evidence is surely in the fact that trans people exist in the first place? This is where I changed course because I do intuitively feel that there is a divergence between feminist theory and reality. Feminist theory (and you) say there is no, as you put it, internal gender. I disagree. Lots of people actually disagree with the idea that there is no concept of gender outside of biological sex. I'm not saying it is a positive thing, but it is a real thing.

@ByGrabtharsHammerWhatASavings you can't in all fairness berate me for apparently not explaining my view and at the same time say you can't be bothered to read my posts. That's ridiculous.[/quote]
Debra Soh is interesting on this, actually. She supports the studies that apparently indicate that a gendered sense of self is created in utero by exposure to sex hormones. She also thinks, however, that sex and gender are different, and at different points, sex should matter most - in situations where women are really vulnerable, sports, and when children are at issue (because personality is so fluid in those years that it's impossible to know what someone will feel as an adult, from their feelings and wishes as a child). She feels transition does help some adults and she supports that as their right.

I'm fine with that. I don't understand gender identity as a concept, honestly, but I also don't need to; it's other people's lives. I just have to respect them, and their choices. As with Soh, I only start to take issue when that impacts other people's rights, too. And in certain spheres it matters a lot. Again: prisons, shelters, dorms etc. She's very clear that some sex offenders - some - will absolutely leap on self ID as a way in. And that denying that - and denying that for some people, it's not an innate identity (again, she not only believes that it is, but that it can be formed in utero) but a paraphilia - she's clear that that demographic is also well evidenced. Her point is that nobody else can know which, and as long as it harms nobody else, it doesn't matter, either, and again, I agree with her. That's the crux, isn't it? When does the conflict of rights kick in. Prior to that, it's nobody else's business.

ByGrabtharsHammerWhatASavings · 30/09/2020 00:55

I read your posts Cloudy, that's how I know they were incoherent. It would take me longer than I have to go through your posts trying to figure out what point you thought you were arguing towards, but that doesn't mean I didn't read them. I honestly think I'd need to print them out and break out the red pens to make it possible. Maybe you could try and summarise your core argument into bullet points? And if you could start by defining the terms you're using that'd be great, because you seem to be using sex and gender as synonyms at some points, and as different things at others, and you have now said that you think gender is both a social constrict and innate like sexuality. You clearly think that you understand what you're saying, but its very hard to follow your posts because they're honestly all over the place.

CloudyVanilla · 30/09/2020 00:56

@ByGrabtharsHammerWhatASavings you don't own feminism, you don't get to decide that feminists who don't exclude trans women are not feminists.

caughtalightsneeze · 30/09/2020 00:57

As with Soh, I only start to take issue when that impacts other people's rights, too.

It impacts other people's rights the minute someone demands that others bend reality to suit them.

CloudyVanilla · 30/09/2020 00:57

Another poster used the term innate gender. I was referring to their term.

Swipe left for the next trending thread