Woman’s Hour Tuesday

[Angryresister]

Apparently they will be discussing the GRA not changes.

Part 3

JG: How, how, do you believe, Nicola, that might have impacted on the lives of some women and girls?

NW: OK, well, that’s because women have sex based rights because we’re female and one of those sex-based rights is the right to have spaces just for us, when, so that’s female-only, male free spaces and opportunities. And so there is already an existing law, for women, that allows all male people to be excluded based on their birth sex. Now that law simply can’t function if another law allows males to hide their birth sex. And so, you know, the government made a judgement that the GRA as it stands already strikes a fair balance. And so instead of self-ID, they will invest in trans healthcare. So when a few trans people with severe gender dysphoria will still be able to change their birth certificate, but it’s not all trans people just on their say so because it’s a step too far. And I, I think no fair-minded government could have kept on ignoring that conflict. They looked to find the fairest solutions, taking everyone into account. Er, and that was the right thing to do.

JG: That’s your view. Erm, Heather, what do you say to Nicola?

HP: Well, I mean, I think this is the ridiculous and this, erm and it’s misinformation about what er Gender Recognition Act reform would actually do. There is, within the Equality Act, already the ability to exclude transgender people from single-sex services and occupations if it is a just and proportionate measure, OK, and that’s not changed by having a Gender Recognition Certificate. That is completely separate. And what most organisations, and we’re talking about domestic violence, erm, organisations, like refuges er and rape centre, crisis centres, erm, they are accepting of transgender people. They already have transgender people use those services. Erm, nothing will change in terms of those particular rights that, erm, Nicola is talking about just because we change Gender Recognition Act reform. But one of the things I would say to Nicola is it’s a real mistake to exclude, for example, transgender women in saying sex-based rights. So when I was sexually harassed at work, and it was very nasty erm harassment, most women and a large number of men supported me. But there was a vocal number of women er, and a lot of misogynist men, who were against it, against me having those anti-harassment rights. What happened is the workplace culture had changed so that it was acceptable erm to be, to make sexualised comments about women. So by not actually supporting transgender rights, actually women undermine other, you know, other women’s rights as well, so I’d say, you know this is just misinformation and just incorrect.

Part 4

JG: Misinformation Nicola?

NW: Well, no. Erm, and the laws on paper for women are meaningless unless they can be implemented. And I’ve explained how hiding someone’s birth sex makes it impossible er, to implement the laws that we’ve, we’ve got for women. I just want to say, look , I’ve got enormous compassion for trans people, you know. But we also need to have compassion for women too. You know, that’s what’s missing in this debate. I want trans people to be treated fairly, and live safely, but I want that for women too because everyone needs to be thought of in good policy making and, you know, women still need sex-based rights. We still need male-free spaces, nothing’s changed for us, the reasons we need them have not gone away, but what has changed iswhat trans groups are now demanding from us. Years ago, transwomen were just asking to be treated as if they were women, you know, and that was a kindness, a courtesy, to do that out of compassion for someone with gender dysphoria. But now, trans pressure groups say that’s not enough. We should be forced by law to say transwomen are literally female…

JG: Alright

NW: …whether you believe it or not, and that’s a problem for women.

JG: Let me put that point to Heather. Heather, it does seem to, to many feminists er and, to people who support Nicola, that it’s always women, always women who have to make way and make space for others.

HP: Er, no, er, no I don’t accept that at all. And what I would say is, er, that transgender women suffer many of the sexual harassments and sexual violence that other women, erm, suffer. And so, really, transgender rights do not conflict with women’s rights. Transgender women are women and suffer those, er sexual, you know, sexual harassment and er domestic violence and..

JG: And, and that’s your , forgive me for interrupting but that is, that is quite literally the point at which I don’t think you’re going to reach any sort of agreement Nicola, because you just don’t believe that, do you?

NW: Well no, because, you know, with the greatest of respect transwomen are not women. That word woman has already been taken, and it means something quite specific . Transwomen are transwomen. They were born male, not female, and it’s a sad truth for them, but it is a truth nonetheless, and the thing is, biological sex is real and it matters to women because every single female has been sha, has had her life shaped, erm, for, by being female basically. Erm, males can’t be female, a penis can’t be a female sex organ

JG: No…a..

NW: … and it shouldn’t be controversial or shameful to say that…

Part 5

JG: And you, you feel that very passionately but Heather equally, and I, I don’t need to put words into her mouth, Heather is living her life and having her experience and I’m sure has been made to feel, well you tell us Heather, you’ve been made to feel vulnerable too?

HP: Oh yes, and, I mean, and as I say and I, I gave the example earlier, it’s actually now, unfortunately it acceptable to abuse transgender women in society, I mean, you know I’ve had, had sexual assaults happen to me and er, the police haven’t taken them seriously and other people don’t take them seriously and the, the trouble is as soon as you start to allow, erm, a group of women, in this case, transgender women, to have less rights and er, not to have you know, not to be treated with respect, actually that creates a culture where that spreads to other women as well. And that, you know, unfortunately is, is going to happen. In terms of this particular debate the, erm, if you dropped GRA reform based on, you know, alt-right campaigns or other misinformation campaigns then, when you come to other equalities, other minorities and women’s equalities, when the law needs to be changed or updated you’ll have those same campaigns and they’ll sense that they actually can, er, succeed…

JG: Right

HP: …with misinformation…

JG: Heather

HP: ..and abuse campaigns…

JG: Heather, thank you, that’s Dr Heather Peto, co-chair of Labour’s LGBTQ, sorry, LGBT plus group, get there in the end, erm, and Dr Nicola Williams from the gloop, group Fair Play for Women. Erm, as ever, we welcome your thoughts on this at BBC Woman’s Hour is where you’ll find us on Twitter, you can email the programme via the website. There’s never enough time for that conversation I understand that and we will of course return to it. But that was the most recent development. I suspect there’ll be much more to come.

Amazing work @pombear

Where to start.....

This quote:
"What I, I’d say to everyone is that when someone else goes low, this is a Michelle Obama quote, erm, when someone else is abusive, don’t respond. Go high, put the arguments, take the moral high ground. Er, and that’s certainly in LGBT Labour, and the Labour Party, what we’ve been trying to do"

HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA

So is Peto telling me TRAs have been GOING HIGH all this time? 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣

Just when I thought they couldn't get lower really?

What's with Peto's weird fixation with sexual assault?

How is it even part of this argument? Just weird.

The amazing Sarah Stuart went to a meeting Peto hosted, where they mentioned a unqualified rape statistic (picture attached).

All very odd

pombear thank you so so much for doing that. Really makes a difference to see it written down.

I too had a good laugh at the idea that TRAs and the women-expelling Labour Party, have gone high. And then finishing with an allegation that women’s groups are alt-right. So very high.

Thank you pombear, I really wanted to see if it was as bizarre as it sounded (half-listening whilst working).

I listened to the interview this evening and I couldn’t believe that HPeto seems to be laying the blame for their sexual assault(s) - which I assume was inflicted by males - on women. WTAF?!? Why don’t they raise this issue with men - who are disproportionately responsible for sexual assault - instead of weaponising it as a very creepy veiled threat against women.

Thank you pombear. Those phone lines! Must've made that difficult.

@seadreaming2020

I listened to the interview this evening and I couldn’t believe that HPeto seems to be laying the blame for their sexual assault(s) - which I assume was inflicted by males - on women. WTAF?!? Why don’t they raise this issue with men - who are disproportionately responsible for sexual assault - instead of weaponising it as a very creepy veiled threat against women.

And what do sexual assaults have to do with the GRA?

Are people with GRCs taken more seriously if they're sexually assaulted? Is that what Peto meant? Very odd.

Thank you so much pombear. I can't bear listening to radio when the sound is poor so I really appreciate that

I know these shows always want "2 sides" represented but it is a shame that this seems to mean GC trans people (there are plenty of them) are never invited to discuss trans issues on popular platforms.

We only ever hear from TWAW crew.

Thanks a million PomBear. I was listening in the kitchen while cooking and just kept hearing little bursts of it that set me off shouting at the radio. I found Nic quite difficult to hear clearly but her words about needing to be compassionate came through loud and clear. I missed quite a lot of what she said so it's good to see it written down.

It's actually a better interview on paper than it seemed at the time. It seemed rushed, Peto was a poor speaker and Jane Garvey seemed anxious to get it over. If it had been another 10 minutes longer Peto could have been better exposed and Nic would have the chance to explain a bit more. I'm not quite so angry with Woman's Hour as I was but they really haven't acquitted themselves well.

Yes, the entire argument was based around how often Peto has been sexual harassed and sexually assaulted. And the that means women were going to get more assaults too, as a result...?

Eh?

Jane Garvey seemed anxious to get it over not at all surprised, Shed.

Bet the brief was along the lines of "keep it tight, don't let them say trans women aren't women"

Thanks, Nic for saying that trans women are trans women, it's so important.

Peto was using it for validation, "I have been sexually assaulted, see how womanly I am!"

Any sexual assault is, of course, awful. However, male people do seem to think it's unusual - I have regular conversations with my gay male pal who was assaulted. He has absolutely no insight into how very common it is, and it has never occurred to him to wonder whether the reason I have such insight into his trauma might be because I have experienced the same thing, as have many of his other female friends. Totally oblivious. It's fascinating, really.

Jenny Murray's last day. As part of her sign off before the end of the programme she said there are many different types of woman, but our sex, we share. That was pretty clear.

Good on her x

Apparently they have managed to edit out the word 'sex' for the BBCR4 news.

I was brought up on R4 but I don't listen much any more. They are run by obsessive fools.

there are many different types of woman, but our sex, we share.

Hear, hear.

We were cheering Jenni's words in our kitchen.

Midday news on R4 played the whole quote including the dreaded word "sex".

Jenni Murray was definitely nailing her colours to the mast there. Brilliant. And then she played "I am woman, hear me roar!" I was a bit emotional!

No dry eyes in our house.

Jenni Murray’s words deserve their own thread on here !

Just listened to the 1pm news on R4 and they used that quote! Wonderful to hear.