Woman’s Hour Tuesday

[Angryresister]

Apparently they will be discussing the GRA not changes.

There is a category of male born person who are not entirely averse to the idea of thinking they might be sexually assaulted.

eg see this from Paris Lees

https://www.vice.com/amp/enuk/article/zn7b79/enjoying-catcalls-paris-lees-column?twitterr_impression=true

Tinsel - that happened last time too...

I've sought advice as to why my last post was deleted so hope this one will be ok.

'there’s a certain kind of middle-class woman that finds catcalls particularly galling: “There’s a sense of being sullied if an uncouth or lower-class kind of man – a white van man, for example – heckles'

Women who don't like street harassment are being snobs, now? I can't quite express how much that Paris Lees article disgusts me.

@ArabellaScott

'there’s a certain kind of middle-class woman that finds catcalls particularly galling: “There’s a sense of being sullied if an uncouth or lower-class kind of man – a white van man, for example – heckles'

Women who don't like street harassment are being snobs, now? I can't quite express how much that Paris Lees article disgusts me.

My last boyfriend seemed genuinely shocked when I explained to him that catcalls always feel like a threat to women and never feel like a compliment. They're a male dominance display.

(To be clear we were discussing the matter generally, he wasn't a cat caller!)

There are just some things that males find very hard to grasp - if you've not experienced the power imbalance that women have it must be hard to see. Blindness of privilege, I suppose.

Yes, that's what I took from Heather's repeated points about the sexual assault.

Well, that's the lot of a woman. It's not unusual that women get harassed and assaulted, surely it's not a surprise to you?

Of course, it might also be validation. Though, I suspect that many transwomen land up in sexual situations which are fetishised. I gather that one of the top searches in porn is, well, a number of terms I'd not be allowed to repeat here.

I think it's important for the voices speaking publicly about this, to people who aren't so aware of the issue, to maintain a compassionate tone, simply because lots of basically decent, right-thinking but unaware women will be alienated from the GC position if it comes across as being cruel or unpleasant.

I have to disagree with this. There is a really unhealthy dynamic at play in this debate in which trans activists guilt-trip women (and everyone really, but women especially) into feeling sorry for them, while refusing to show even the smallest empathy for women in return. This dynamic needs pointing out, not reinforcing. I think it would be far more useful for GC spokeswomen to point out that women's compassion is being manipulated by people who have none for us.

Many 'decent, right-thinking' women would listen to how hard someone like Peto supposedly has it, and agree, yes, yes, it must be very hard to be male and yet feel like you are a woman inside. Without pondering the fact that Peto displays an utter indifference to the safety and feelings of women - the same group of people Peto claims to 'identify as'. If this were pointed out in public debates, it would result in more than few lightbulb moments I think.

Most prominent 'GC' women already take an overtly soothing line WRT 'trans rights', which are in reality unreasonable demands. It keeps them on the defensive, where they are constantly trying to reassure others that they are not 'transphobic'. Meanwhile no one asks trans activists why they are making these extreme demands of society at large and women in particular, or why they show such consistent disrespect for the safety and feelings of women. I mean, Dr Nic did do this a bit, actually, which is really good. More pushback, less defensiveness! Put TRAs on the back foot. Shift the narrative, and make them defend their anti-woman, anti-child, anti-reality agenda.

It's sometimes pointed out that, for instance, male sex offenders are being transferred to women's prisons. It's portrayed as something that just 'happens'. But no one links this explicitly to the fact that trans activists worked to make this happen. This is the agenda they have been enacting, while protesting that they 'just want to live their lives'. Trans activists campaigned long and hard for the likes of Stephen Wood aka 'Karen White' to be incarcerated with women. But no one says to TRAs: you demanded this - why? Just for once, I would like to hear them asked: why do you want male sex offenders to be locked up with female prisoners? Why did you lobby for that? Why do you want men who rape and murder women to have their crimes recorded as female on their say-so?

@FindTheTruth

Bingo...

Heather - Liz Truss claimed what trans people asked for most in the consultation is better health care. However there was no question in the consultation on healthcare

Nicola - They're demanding women’s sexed-based rights, so women’s views needed to be heard on GRA reform

Also, Nicola - "Hiding someones birth sex makes it impossible to implement [same sex spaces for women]."

She was referring to altered birth certificates for those with a GRC.
GRC holders can carry on as normal.

Arabella, I had a quick look at HP's blog and then saw your comment and they made me think of something Helen Joyce says in this video, which I watched a week or two ago:

I await her book with bated breath. It could be a game-changer because she's so highly regarded.

Helen made a point that in her interviews and research it took a while for her to understand that some transgender people feel that there is an actual, separate person of the opposite sex inside them, trapped and desperate to get out. And that transitioning means the death of the man they used to be and rebirth as a woman. Not just a symbolic death, but a real one. When they transition they die and are born again as their true selves.

As others have pointed out It's clear from responses like Peto's that the woman inside has sod all understanding of the reality of being a woman. So you end up with a person who feels reborn into their true womanly self, expects to be accepted as a woman and validated by other women but doesn't look like a woman, has no idea of what being a woman involves and no empathy with women. It's a recipe for disaster.

She was referring to altered birth certificates for those with a GRC. GRC holders can carry on as normal.

Yes - including not being legally entitled to single sex services/spaces - as per the EA sex based exemptions for the safety, dignity, privacy and equity of access of women and girls. Exclusion is based on sex - that they are male, not gender reassignment.

Lots of rolling back of Stonewall’s lies. Ann Sinnott’s legal case is important.

I've just read Glinner's post about Peto's, uh, mythologising.

Oh wow, that blog post by Peto is just...wow. They really come across as completely deranged. And narcissistic to a degree I don’t think I’ve ever encountered before. And this is the person WH decided to give credibility to? Jesus.

I don't think I can make it all the way through because the specific way in which it does not ring true, makes me uncomfortable. But based on what I've read so far I would like to heartily second this.

Can you imagine a woman who had written this blog being invited on the BBC as an authority on anything? The different standards applied to transwomen and women in public life are beyond a joke.

I think it's important for the voices speaking publicly about this, to people who aren't so aware of the issue, to maintain a compassionate tone, simply because lots of basically decent, right-thinking but unaware women will be alienated from the GC position if it comes across as being cruel or unpleasant.

I have to disagree with this. There is a really unhealthy dynamic at play in this debate in which trans activists guilt-trip women (and everyone really, but women especially) into feeling sorry for them, while refusing to show even the smallest empathy for women in return. This dynamic needs pointing out, not reinforcing.

The unhealthy dynamic is that TRAs (particularly the male ones) are taking advantage of the differences in masculine and feminine socialisation - which is also why the PP suggests that women may be turned off by other women behaving in a way that contravenes feminine socialisation. You can see this in the different ways women respond to Posie and Magdalen compared to how they respond to Dr Nick. We need both styles!

I agree that, rather than debate the ins and outs, and the assumption that trans people are somehow having something taken away from them, we need to show people the consequences: the male rapists in women's prisons, for example.

Can you imagine a woman who had written this blog being invited on the BBC as an authority on anything? The different standards applied to transwomen and women in public life are beyond a joke.

I second this. Is there not some kind of due diligence to be done in booking serious contributors? I know the answer to that...

mobile.twitter.com/Womans_Place_UK/status/1310871023928127488

I like to think this guest was a deliberate choice. Chosen for the quality of their argument and ability to put themselves in the other person's shoes.

Yes basically what WPUK have said, it is important to have a calm discussion hearing the side you disagree with.

I long to hear Julia Long on these kind of debates.

I am sure the BBC does check, the blog says it has evidence to back it up that Peto will give to journalists.

Did someone mention a transcript would be useful? (It's been a while, but I had a bit of spare time this evening for once!)

Coming up - in five parts for post readability!

Fab, pombear, thank you!!!

Part 1:

JG: Jane Garvey

HP: Dr Heather Peto

NW: Dr Nicola Williams

JG: Let’s start with the gender recognition act which isn’t changing. Trans men and women will not be allowed to self-identify. The Equalities and Human Rights Commission has said it was a missed opportunity . Women’s rights groups have applauded that decision as wat they describe as a victory for fairness and common sense.
Let’s talk to two people who’ve been campaigning on this issue, Dr Heather Peto is co-chair of the Labour Party’s LGBT+ group, Heather good morning to you

HP: Good morning

JG: And Dr Nicola Williams is from the group Fair Play for Women, erm, good morning to you too Nicola.

NW: Good morning.

JG: Can we just, Heather, if you don’t mind, start with you. Erm, er, (HP: Yes) can you just tell us a little bit about what difference it would have made to your life if the GRA had indeed changed and you were allowed to self-identify.

HP: So, self, self-identification of your gender is really important because, erm, not only for the individual which allows your birth certificate and therefore your legal status, er, to be changed. You can already change your passport, and your driving licence but for er legal reasons it’s important to have your birth certificate changed. But the real issue behind self-identification is acceptance of transgender people. It used to be the case that, er, you know, you’d go round your daily life a, and people would, you know, strangers on the streets or other people in the workplace would demand that you proved to them that you are the gender er, that you state you are. So, you know, prove to me that you’re a woman. And I’m just trying to go around my ordinary life erm, so really the er, the Gender Recognition Act allowing people just to self-declare their gender is all about acceptance by society. After all you wouldn’t have, you know, you’d, we would find it strange if we said ‘well you’ve got to prove to someone that you’re er lesbian, gay or bisexual’. Erm, so that’s really what, what the Gender Recognition Act reform was all about.

Part 2

JG: Right. So as it stands you’re left feeling that you’re still not accepted?

HP: Erm, yes and I think the trouble has been over three years of this toxic er discussion. There’s lots of misinformation, hate targeted towards transgender people . I think that has almost set us backwards with our rights because although nothing is changing in terms of the law, what society sees as acceptable abuse of transgender people, only a few people within society but nevertheless it’s not challenged, erm, it, it’s got a lot worse. So I think, I mean we’re [?]at this point.

JG: Yeah, what we have to acknowledge Heather is that some of that toxicity has been directed at people campaigning for the rights of women. And some of it has been deeply unpleasant.

HP: Yes, well I mean, and a lot of it has been deeply unpleasant targeted to transgender people. What I, I’d say to everyone is that when someone else goes low, this is a Michelle Obama quote, erm, when someone else is abusive, don’t respond. Go high, put the arguments, take the moral high ground. Er, and that’s certainly in LGBT Labour, and the Labour Party, what we’ve been trying to do. Unfortunately it’s not so popular it seems. So one of the things, one of the difficulties is on social media, toxicity is more popular, reasonable arguments and facts, you know, we’re living at a time where social media does direct discussions.

JG: Yes, well you can cer, yeah, the problem with social media is that sometimes, and I’m, I’m including myself here, we think it’s everything. And we think everybody’s on it and everybody cares about what’s said on it. It simply isn’t true, of course.

Erm, Nicola, Heather is left feeling that she still isn’t accepted for who she is. What do you say to her?

NW: Well, I think we need to be really clear about the terms we use in this debate because the phrase self-ID is bandied around quite a bit but it means different things in different contexts really. So I mean trans people can already self-identify as transgender. That doesn’t change. And trans people have laws to protect them from discrimination and hate crimes, and, erm, trans people in the UK have good trans rights, I’d say some of the best in the world. And, and so they should. You know, I’m glad that they do. But self-ID in a context of GRA reform wasn’t about giving trans people more trans rights. It was actually about giving them more sex-based rights. Women’s sex-based rights. Because it wasn’t just about the ability to self-identify their gender identity, but it was about self-identifying their birth sex too, so…

JG: Right..and it’s…

NW: And that would have meant that any transwoman, for any, or any man for that matter, would have been able to get a new birth certificate, saying that he’d literally been born female, and that it would have been a criminal offence for their birth…

JG: OK

NW: …sex to be revealed, and that’s a conflict.