Dear MNHQ:

[PerfectPretender]

It's become perfectly clear now that pointing out safeguarding failures over recent years has not been unreasonable, or mean-spirited, or unkind, but actually completely reasonable and expected of educational guidelines and safeguarding procedures.

It's time for you to accept that our concerns were, shall we say, valid.

And every single time you deleted one of us for pointing out these blindingly obvious safeguarding failures? Wrong side of history. You.

You owe a lot of women an apology.

I wish Mumsnet had a simple 'Donate' button, too. A lot of websites do these days

Yes this. A simple donate, without an online form asking a zillion questions and without wanting to post to FB etc. Just a simple donate whatever you want with a PayPal option. I might be tempted to chuck the odd fiver their way, when I had a bit spare, if it was that simple.

They haven't done it from the kindness of their hearts or because they want to be fair, they've done it as a commercial decision to protect their brand.

Nah I think the opposite.

This is the only mainstream place that platforms this conversation. The only one.

This.

I've been following this debate for nearly 8 years, and in that time I've seen vibrant platforms full of fiercely intelligent women and their words just disappear. Poof. Wordpress deleted Gallus Mag's extraordinary blog Gendertrender without warning, after she broke the story of Yaniv in Canada. Gendertrender had some of the sharpest and most powerful feminist writing I have ever read anywhere. It's all gone.

Reddit shut down the 60,000 strong community of r/gendercritical at the behest of trans activists, at the same time as they banned virtually all lesbian- and woman-centred subreddits. Twitter bans feminists for correctly sexing male criminals like Yaniv, and often even for simply referencing biological sex.

I expect similar moves in the future from Facebook, YouTube, Spotify and all major platforms. The men of Big Tech intend to make it impossible for women to talk about this issue online, and they are very close to succeeding.

This is the reason I value Mumsnet and want it to survive. This is the reason I subscribe to Premium, and I hope others who are on the fence will think about doing so too. An investment in Mumsnet is an investment in women's space on the internet, which is something that women urgently need to value and build if we don't want the future to be utterly dystopian.

@wellbehavedwomen,
My point was only that some people claim that MN haven't taken a risk in platforming this discussion, then turn around and say they can't risk anyone knowing that they're part of it.
I agree entirely: MN has taken a risk, you'd have to be very dense not to see that. Whether they could have taken a bigger risk... I don't know, but this is a space that has opened my eyes.

@CallarMorvern

I wish Mumsnet had a simple 'Donate' button, too. A lot of websites do these days

Yes this. A simple donate, without an online form asking a zillion questions and without wanting to post to FB etc. Just a simple donate whatever you want with a PayPal option. I might be tempted to chuck the odd fiver their way, when I had a bit spare, if it was that simple.

Yes. For all the legitimate criticism that can be levelled, I would be willing to contribute to a platform that allows GC discussion. It's testament to how radical that stance actually is that many of us would only be willing to donate if it were done so without any link to usernames.

@JamieLeeCurtains

I wish Mumsnet had a simple 'Donate' button, too. A lot of websites do these days, as well as subscription offers.

I would donate anonymously.

I'm with you screaming tbh

I'm trying to have sympathy i really am but we have lost the ability to discuss so many things. We have slowly but surely had our language and our discussions controlled and censored to the point we almost have to talk in code at times and its been done in.such a way that although its clearly to appease one set of people who can't make up their minds one day to the next what is actually offensive and why it is offensive, we actually have to be grateful we can talk at all.

And we know specific people are targeted because others saying exactly the same thing are allowed to stand whilst.

As frustrating as it is when posts and threads disappear, I think I understand why. It does seem unfair as I mostly can't see what is wrong with the content but I think it's so Mumsnet can show that they can't be accused of not listening to complaints (whether they are genuine or not). This allows them to continue to let the conversation about this flow. Whilst all that is going on here, there are many lurkers writing letters, taking to their friends and contributing to causes. This is why the TRAs hate us so much.

We're very good at the code, though. It's an emerging women's language.

My point was only that some people claim that MN haven't taken a risk in platforming this discussion

I think they have taken a risk.

But it was a risk they had to take. Sometimes, business have to take risks because of outside factors. It would also have been a massive risk to not allow the discussion to take place because it would have undermined their claim to support free speech massively. Remember MN is part of the lobby to weaken libel laws in the UK, it would undermine their brand of fierce women talking if they refused outright to let the fiercest women talk.

As it is, they've managed to get rid of some of the fierce ones by banning them or by repelling them with the constant exhausting eggshell walking. I salute those of you who are managing to develop a code, but every time they crack the code, they delete the post again and they won't tell you what language would be acceptable instead so you're left guessing.

I would press a donate button if I knew I was going to be allowed to talk freely (not abusively or illegally, just sanely). But that's not on offer AFAIK.

At the very least only members should be allowed to report a post.

I agree. I would be interested to see a breakdown of % of FWR reports coming from
A) regularly posting MN members on FWR (or other areas)
B) non members of MN
C) relatively inactive/infrequent posters on FWR (or other areas)

My suspicion is that reports mainly come from B or C but that’s just a hunch.

@ChattyLion

At the very least only members should be allowed to report a post.

I agree. I would be interested to see a breakdown of % of FWR reports coming from
A) regularly posting MN members on FWR (or other areas)
B) non members of MN
C) relatively inactive/infrequent posters on FWR (or other areas)

My suspicion is that reports mainly come from B or C but that’s just a hunch.

With respect, this is entirely unworkable. It's not an onerous task to become a member of Mumsnet, and it's not at all difficult to build up a posting history, sometimes with out and out goady fuckery in the current climate. I'm quite sure most of the targetted reports of members here are done by legitimate MN accounts set up for that very purpose.

And I will say again, my gratitude and respect is to the women who have provided the content here that has pushed and pushed against the wall of silence we faced.

I acknowledge it may have a challenge to moderate in the face of relentless pressure from odious bad faith actors and eager zealots and I'm sure there has been some financial fallout for the business. I hope they keep faith with all of you who have decided to support them financially. Again, credit to you, FWR posters for having integrity like that.

Personally I think of the women, whom some consider collateral damage, who faced the difficulties of trying to say acceptable but untrue things when they are neuro diverse and got deleted for it, or the women who have survived coercive abuse finding themselves navigating shifting, unclear rules to try and talk about their experiences and why single sex provision was so important to them, and dealing with psychological consequences of being given strikes for not being sufficiently compliant.

I salute their struggle to be heard and it's pretty much the only reason I still post here.

Just to be very clear here, I don't especially blame Mumsnet for pursuing business ends and moderating in light of that, and yes, they can certainly make whatever rules they like, even if they deem it appropriate to treat women like that for some nebulous greater good concept.

I draw the line at thanking them for it, however. You all know about it because tenacious women kept plugging away and didn't give up in the face of it all.

You all know about it because tenacious women kept plugging away and didn't give up in the face of it all.

Again, this is a place where women are NOT ALLOWED to talk about the implications of self-ID and GRC's over-riding natal sex for the safety of women and girls involuntarily held in psychiatric institutions!

And women here want to pressure other women into giving MN money?

I'm here, because this is where the brave British feminists are, feminists who literally saved me from self-harm when the pressure of being forced by a psychiatrist to collude in a lie about my child's sex threatened to overwhelm me.

That MN tolerates such support is a very low bar indeed.

It's a measure of how toxic the environment is for women that we are being told to applaud and financially support a less extreme form of censorship.

I would happily support MN with cash if they stopped censoring women's speech. It's absolute madness not to be able to call a man a man in the context of women discussing the needs of vulnerable women and girls. Madness. It's cultural insanity.

@FloralBunting

Just to be very clear here, I don't especially blame Mumsnet for pursuing business ends and moderating in light of that, and yes, they can certainly make whatever rules they like, even if they deem it appropriate to treat women like that for some nebulous greater good concept.

I draw the line at thanking them for it, however. You all know about it because tenacious women kept plugging away and didn't give up in the face of it all.

And yes, this.

MN is a business, not a charity, and they can do what they like. That's not in doubt. They can ban me for criticising them - that's absolutely their right.

My frustration is directed at those women who expect all of us to cheer them on for it, because they let us eat crumbs that fall from their table.

The crumbs might sustain life, just, but it's nothing to celebrate.

But black wave. It’s mad everywhere

Look how how big tech is shutting down women everywhere.

Reddit banning all their forums

Twitter banning women.

Facebook doing same

I was perma banned off here

But we are still the strongest platform for women’s rights left on internet that is seen publicly

Media come here and politicians to see what is happening

We learnt the language we have to use. Hate that

But we ar changing things and that’s so important

Irish and Scottish women are having voice here as we are blanked in our own countries as are trans widows

We are making changes. Don’t under estimate that what we say is. Not important

Nowhere esle it seems we can be heard

With respect, this is entirely unworkable. It's not an onerous task to become a member of Mumsnet, and it's not at all difficult to build up a posting history, sometimes with out and out goady fuckery in the current climate. I'm quite sure most of the targetted reports of members here are done by legitimate MN accounts set up for that very purpose

Sometimes you can be on MN since practically absolute fields and be an extremely regular poster on lots of main boards before going anywhere near this one, who's to say they're not reporting some of the shit they've seen

Twitter banning women
Facebook doing same

How do we know it's women?
Twitter especially
A lot of the accounts I've seen, no clue if male or female.
You say banning women.
I say banning transphobic shit (yeah, whatever before anyone starts) and the names on there give no clue whether "banning women" or not.
It's the views you have, not the sex, how would anyone even know?

Personally I think of the women, whom some consider collateral damage, who faced the difficulties of trying to say acceptable but untrue things when they are neuro diverse and got deleted for it, or the women who have survived coercive abuse finding themselves navigating shifting, unclear rules to try and talk about their experiences and why single sex provision was so important to them, and dealing with psychological consequences of being given strikes for not being sufficiently compliant

Yes...i think this has been the worst bit

Trying to figure what you might have said wrong, not being told what youve said wrong, retrospective rules That mean you are now wrong...even though you weren’t wrong when you typed it

And biscuit honestly....you’re own emoji meaning ‘no comment’ and someone gets deleted for it 😳

And watching goady posters getting deleted...sometimes 6 or 7 times on one thread and not being suspended for it

@Quaagars

With respect, this is entirely unworkable. It's not an onerous task to become a member of Mumsnet, and it's not at all difficult to build up a posting history, sometimes with out and out goady fuckery in the current climate. I'm quite sure most of the targetted reports of members here are done by legitimate MN accounts set up for that very purpose

Sometimes you can be on MN since practically absolute fields and be an extremely regular poster on lots of main boards before going anywhere near this one, who's to say they're not reporting some of the shit they've seen

Oh, I'm also sure that some long term posters like yourself may well be quite happy to report the women here, too. Don't feel I was leaving you out.

Very inclusive of you floral

Rufus, I'm too bloody nice. Everyone says it

Ive heard it said floral ...I’ve heard it said

@littlbrowndog

But black wave. It’s mad everywhere

Look how how big tech is shutting down women everywhere.

Reddit banning all their forums

Twitter banning women.

Facebook doing same

I was perma banned off here

But we are still the strongest platform for women’s rights left on internet that is seen publicly

Media come here and politicians to see what is happening

We learnt the language we have to use. Hate that

But we ar changing things and that’s so important

Irish and Scottish women are having voice here as we are blanked in our own countries as are trans widows

We are making changes. Don’t under estimate that what we say is. Not important

Nowhere esle it seems we can be heard

I don't underestimate the women here. You're all wonderful. I'm in awe.

I just can't - won't - celebrate censorship of women's voices, be that 'light' censorship or not. And removing an entire thread that spoke to the vulnerability of women and girls in psychiatric institutions to men, of whatever gender identity, is not 'light censorship'.

And I'm not going to bloody well pay to for the pleasure of being prey to the censor either!