Dear MNHQ:

[PerfectPretender]

It's become perfectly clear now that pointing out safeguarding failures over recent years has not been unreasonable, or mean-spirited, or unkind, but actually completely reasonable and expected of educational guidelines and safeguarding procedures.

It's time for you to accept that our concerns were, shall we say, valid.

And every single time you deleted one of us for pointing out these blindingly obvious safeguarding failures? Wrong side of history. You.

You owe a lot of women an apology.

At times FWR has felt like the credit sequence of Dad's Army.

Mum's(net) Army?

I salute everyone. The posters who provided such incredible thought and clarity and radicalised me, and Justine and the mods who took a more difficult path than they needed to, from principle.

Was JackieHolyoake banned as well - she used to talk really well about the legal side.

@SophocIestheFox

It’s giving me arse splinters from fence sitting, but I’m another who is both grateful that we have somewhere to discuss this when so many other places just reach for the bad hammer, and frustrated by the inconsistency, mistakes and mis steps that have dogged the endeavour.

Having modded in the past, I know what a thankless fucker of a task it can be, and just how wearing it is to be constantly dealing with people telling you how much better you should be. Working as a mod Behind the scenes on a message board is like getting a crash course in how to deal with malignant personality disorders, top level bullies and whingers who could medal in the whinging Olympics. Users are frequently Not Nice. But the loss of prominent posters is still a loss, and hard to fathom.

I wonder if now that the tenor of the public discourse has changed, if the moderation guidelines could be revisited, and the position that mumsnet allows freedom of expression around all aspects of women’s rights strengthened.

Pretty much this

Apart from the modding, ive never modded...I don’t think i have the right temperament

I agree a demand for an apology is not warranted. Although I do strongly object to us being told off for ‘haranguing’ elected representatives who come onto webchats. That was MN grossly misrepresenting what’s going on when we try to get politicians to listen and using gendered language to shut us up. Not cool.

I do though think it’s time for MNHQ to look again at moderating policy on this topic which is so out of kilter with other topics - even controversial and sensitive ones. Again I refer to the BAME topic and discussion about racism as an example.

Policing of words around safeguarding, grooming and AGP all need looking at again. As do the banned posters. And MNHQ’s attitude to reports from externals. I’ve even been deleted for referring to external mods. Who explicitly state that they are watching and reporting and celebrating when they get MNHQ to delete statements of fact.

Morning, everyone,

Thanks for your thoughts here. While we know we will never please everyone all the time, we're always sorry to hear we've disappopinted.

On this topic though, we think we've been pretty clear about the rules and have had to make difficult decisions sometimes in order to keep conversations within them.

As several posters here have pointed out, we have indeed been under significant pressure not to allow the discussion to take place at all. At one point Mumsnet was (with one or two notable exceptions) just about the only place where you could discuss the issue at all. So we're pleased to hear that it was appreciated.

We would continue to ask everyone to post within our guidelines. We appreciate some may not agree with them, but they exist so we can keep the discussion going. Thanks .

I've just had an email from the office of the Baroness, asking us to bring the new RSE guidance to the attention of schools.

I'd never have known about any of that without MN. So yea, I find the the modding extreme at times, but without MN is have had nowhere to develop my thoughts and learn about all this. It's like a run-down village local: better a grumpy landlord than no pub at all.

Morning Hebe 🙂

I wonder, would there be any appetite at all to drop the FWR specific modding guidelines, like the three strike policy (which must be an extra ballache), and just moderate this board the same way as the rest of the site?

Interested to know if you (you the mod team in general) still think that serves.

The various times I’ve engaged with MNHQ on this issue and pointed out the different standards to which we are held, I’ve been told to report more.

I don’t want to report. I’ve never reported anyone in my life. It’s this approach that creates a race to the bottom, attack or be attacked mentality. This does not help anyone.

I’d like MNHQ to review that approach - the answer is not to fight fire with fire. It’s to let people speak. Truthfully and civilly. I’ve always been truthful and civil. But I’ve also been banned and that’s because of the escalation MNHQ’s policy on reports has created.

But the loss of prominent posters is still a loss, and hard to fathom.

I imagine effective posters are the first to be targeted.

So. Lots of complaints. Some deletions. The posters rightly object. Row. Banning.

MN do though keep discussion going and more of us realise that we need to step up and not be silenced.

The Overton window (great concept, learned on FWR) has now shifted. Stonewall tactics are changing. I hope the landscape has changed sufficiently that some of our great, articulate, knowledgeable, wise, but now banned, posters can be allowed back.

Does anyone know which are the "notable exceptions" that Hebe alluded to?

I can only think of kiwifarms.

It's like a run-down village local: better a grumpy landlord than no pub at all.

I've been here in various guises for 17 years now - came for the nappy advice, stayed for the feminisms.

On balance (picks splinters from arse), whilst I agree that there were some inexcusably ill conceived bannings - MNHQ still held the line & didn't cave to demands that we STFU. Can't have been easy, must have brought down an absolute fuck ton of behind the scenes abuse & bullshit.

I think they stuck to the JKR precept of doing what's right, not what's easy. So it's & from me. I'm very grateful to have been Radicalised by Mumsnet. & I'd love a mug, if anyone is making them...

@SophocIestheFox

It’s giving me arse splinters from fence sitting, but I’m another who is both grateful that we have somewhere to discuss this when so many other places just reach for the bad hammer, and frustrated by the inconsistency, mistakes and mis steps that have dogged the endeavour.

Having modded in the past, I know what a thankless fucker of a task it can be, and just how wearing it is to be constantly dealing with people telling you how much better you should be. Working as a mod Behind the scenes on a message board is like getting a crash course in how to deal with malignant personality disorders, top level bullies and whingers who could medal in the whinging Olympics. Users are frequently Not Nice. But the loss of prominent posters is still a loss, and hard to fathom.

I wonder if now that the tenor of the public discourse has changed, if the moderation guidelines could be revisited, and the position that mumsnet allows freedom of expression around all aspects of women’s rights strengthened.

And it's not a democracy, same as any online forum. It's a service you can opt into or out of. The owners set the rules. If you can live with them you stay, if you can't you can leave. They don't owe an apology because they ran it differently to how someone else would choose to run it. My house, my rules. Thems the breaks. I'm personally enormously grateful to MN for providing this space for some pretty close to the knuckle discussions which wouldn't be permitted in most other online communities. This space has kept me sane over the past 18 months or so since I peaked.

Yes MN has been one of the only places we can talk about our concerns but the rules are complicated especially for new posters. In light of the new law rejecting self identity, surely the whole nonsense about obscuring real identities by the use of the wrong pronouns should be reviewed again? Not to mention safeguarding and the protection of specific fetishes. My understanding is that we can now challenge people to produce a GRC to support their claims. We still won’t actually believe they have changed sex though. Would this not avoid legal action?

Well, yes and no, z0rro, because as well as being the consumers here, we’re also the content. No users, no content. Advertisers pay for access to users here. So I think it’s Ok to ask to have our thoughts taken into account - It’s a poor company that doesn’t want to know what its users think. Of course MNHQ have the final say.

Post Covid can we have a Mumsnet festival.

DJ Lippy and DJ Zuby, Alison Moyet, even Marilyn, providing the entertainment. Mugs for sale and Posie can flog her T shirts. A mad array of speakers, including David TC Davis, Liz Truss, the Baroness, Lord Mooney, JKR, Rose/Fionne, Julie Bindel and some other great feminists and fighters. Piers Morgan can interview. Special applause for the MN mods (perhaps they could do a dance), and for James Kirkup and Janice Turner. Pre-drinks at the National Theatre. Five a side football against Millwall Women, then a dip in the Hampstead ponds. Menu based on suggestions by Bunbury.

A good time would be had by all.

( I will wear my Let a Woman Speak leggings, and soak up the envy.)

@Needmoresleep

Post Covid can we have a Mumsnet festival.

DJ Lippy and DJ Zuby, Alison Moyet, even Marilyn, providing the entertainment. Mugs for sale and Posie can flog her T shirts. A mad array of speakers, including David TC Davis, Liz Truss, the Baroness, Lord Mooney, JKR, Rose/Fionne, Julie Bindel and some other great feminists and fighters. Piers Morgan can interview. Special applause for the MN mods (perhaps they could do a dance), and for James Kirkup and Janice Turner. Pre-drinks at the National Theatre. Five a side football against Millwall Women, then a dip in the Hampstead ponds. Menu based on suggestions by Bunbury.

A good time would be had by all.

( I will wear my Let a Woman Speak leggings, and soak up the envy.)

Great idea ... but for now, does anyone have the keys to The Bluestocking?

Please, not the leggings

Envy....

"Post Covid can we have a Mumsnet festival."

Yes please!

I started reading this thread after reading an article about how the Spectator dealt with a recent threat by the Co-op to withdraw advertising. The Co-op had been targeted by Stop Funding Hate.

www.spectator.co.uk/article/the-spectator-the-co-op-and-cancel-culture-a-cautionary-tale

"The theory behind Stop Funding Hate is that publications get most of their money from advertisers, not readers – so pressure exerted via advertisers can work. And that the financial managers of a publication are the weak link. If you threaten the revenue, the money will clip journalists’ wings. This theory doesn’t quite work at The Spectator where advertising revenue is dwarfed by support from readers (we now outsell the weekday Guardian and the FT) and the company is run by one Andrew Neil. When the Co-op tweeted that they’d binned us, he reacted in a way that I doubt they expected - and immediately announced that they were banned as an advertiser. ......The story went viral, but it soon translated into a flood of new subscriptions to The Spectator. People, it seems, have had their fill of cancel culture and were pleased to see a publication standing up to it. We ended up with over 1,000 subs: our own Co-op dividend. Then it all started to backfire on the Co-op, with all kinds of people threatening not to shop there. "

So I was thinking about Mumsnet's recent efforts to encourage direct financial support and while at first I felt slightly cynical about this I think I've changed my mind. If Mumsnet is less dependent on its advertisers it is in a stronger position not to be blackmailed by them. There might still be legal and other issues to navigate but that can happen in a better environment if the financial pressures are reduced.

So I am going to start supporting Mumsnet financially and hope this will contribute to the continuation of FWR as a place where uncomfortable truths can be spoken to power and given the oxygen of publicity.

I would happily support Mumsnet financially IF they allow us to name men, as men. The whole jumping through hoops to try & get a point across whilst not using certain phrases is at best tedious and at worst compelled speech. It is not hatred to identify a man as a man & the myth that it is, needs to be refuted every time.

LangCleg wrote Thu 21-Feb-19

"How did the scandal of TV entertainers grooming and exploiting children get so bad before anything was done?

How did the scandal of Catholic priests grooming and exploiting children get so bad before anything was done?

How did the scandal of on-street gangs grooming and exploiting children get so bad before anything was done?

Because if you create a sacred caste of any group and silence anyone asking questions about individuals on behalf of the sacred caste, abusers will see, infiltrate, and groom and exploit children. That''s how."

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3512177-Julia-Long-asking-Munro-Bergdorf-about-child-exploitation?pg=12

& huge gratitude to the many women who make the difference.

It is very apparent how many people do not understand the core principles of Safeguarding.

Until that changes, children & Vulnerable Adults are at uneccessary risk.

invisible and happy I kind of agree with both of you.

I would support Mumsnet financially, if it weren't for the fact that they keep banning women for stating facts, and truth, in keeping with the Equality Act. If I had paid to use mumsnet and then got banned for saying someone male was male, then I'd be fucking livid. (Would they refund?). And it's not just the bans, its the constant thread deletions when a man gets upset. And how they let the reporting system be gamed. And how they pander to men, even on issues that are exploitation of females, like surrogacy.

But on the other hand, yes, I'd prefer they weren't beholden to woke advertisers reacting to teenage tantrums on twitter.

Need to think some more.