Dear MNHQ:

[PerfectPretender]

It's become perfectly clear now that pointing out safeguarding failures over recent years has not been unreasonable, or mean-spirited, or unkind, but actually completely reasonable and expected of educational guidelines and safeguarding procedures.

It's time for you to accept that our concerns were, shall we say, valid.

And every single time you deleted one of us for pointing out these blindingly obvious safeguarding failures? Wrong side of history. You.

You owe a lot of women an apology.

Yes Mollscroll

Radicalised by Mumsnetters with those banhammered & missing in action listed.

The thing is so we talk here and we read even if we don’t talk here

And then we go about our lives having conversations about the stuff we have learnt here with other people then they talk to other people

I think that’s how it works and it’s so strong

@Fantasisa

I think for every woman who posts on this section, there's countless more quietly reading and getting a handle on the issues.

And think how happy TRAs would be if they could get Mumsnet shut down, that alone should tell us that even though it isn't perfect it is pretty damn amazing.

I’m mostly a lurker, but it’s this that brought me here from Twitter. Seeing liberal satirical news commenters like James Felton call it a “hotbed of transphobia” made me realise how quickly such bad faith dismissals spread (am not convinced he’d ever look for himself) and how such men would shut down an entire site for women and see it as a victory. It also constitutes a huge disregard for mothers and our need to access support and information. I realised the inherent misogyny of it all and how vital the survival of Mumsnet is.

It’s giving me arse splinters from fence sitting, but I’m another who is both grateful that we have somewhere to discuss this when so many other places just reach for the bad hammer, and frustrated by the inconsistency, mistakes and mis steps that have dogged the endeavour.

Having modded in the past, I know what a thankless fucker of a task it can be, and just how wearing it is to be constantly dealing with people telling you how much better you should be. Working as a mod Behind the scenes on a message board is like getting a crash course in how to deal with malignant personality disorders, top level bullies and whingers who could medal in the whinging Olympics. Users are frequently Not Nice. But the loss of prominent posters is still a loss, and hard to fathom.

I wonder if now that the tenor of the public discourse has changed, if the moderation guidelines could be revisited, and the position that mumsnet allows freedom of expression around all aspects of women’s rights strengthened.

Thanks to everyone on here for keeping this conversation going. It is an important fight, courage my friends, keep going.

I'm also grateful that this place has stayed open and I do understand that Mumsnet has been under heavy criticism and pressure (financial and otherwise) because of it. So I appreciate that this board has remained.

That being said, I absolutely cannot understand how issues relating to safeguarding cannot be allowed on a parenting website. I think MNHQ need to have a review of what has gone on here so they can be clear about this in the future for themselves. I'm terrible at remembering my own usernames, never mind anybody else's, but Lang I always knew. Her being banned was a very dark moment. Not because I like her, but because pretty much without exception her posts were important additions to every thread she was on. Informative and eye opening. That someone so intimately informed of safeguarding women and children was removed still makes my blood run cold. Her posting history should have been properly taken into account. If child safeguarding becomes too outrageous for a parenting forum, I'd suggest that forum needs to have a hard look at itself.

No site is ever perfect, but child (and vulnerable women) safeguarding is something that should be a basic principle, not an optional extra that's removed if someone objects..because what sort of person/people would object to child safeguarding?

Advertisers would be insane to boycott Mumsnet, given how much buying power your average Mumsnetter has.

I say thank you to @MumsnetHQ for allowing the conversation when so many platforms are shut down or censored.

I agree that MNHQ were in a difficult place. That they didn't shut down the debate entirely is remarkable.

I know posters were banned and are missed. Some, however, were banned after unacceptable attacks on other posters and on MNHQ themselves. I think we should remember that. No platform is going to tolerate some of the language and aggression used, no matter how frustrated the poster may feel.

Now might be the time to wipe the slate clean, though.

We dont know what was happening behind the scenes, but I have no doubt that it was grim. Constant complaints, threatened law suits, advertiser boycotts, personal attacks.

So many firms caved under far less pressure. Just think of Posie's posters.

MN steered a tricky path through the middle, demonstrating that they were "listening" but keeping the board open. Even though it would have been cheaper and easier to close discussion altogether. Sometimes the necessary compromise is one leaves both sides unhappy. Activists wanted women silenced altogether, so they were the bigger losers.

When the book is written, Justine deserves strong praise for her willingness to stand up for free speech and women's rights. The list of those who did not: Labour, LibDems, SNP, Guardian, BBC, Ocado, Railtrack, Twitter, many Universities, even Murray's school, and on and on is long and shameful.

MN has more balls than Millwall. Yes they made a few mistakes and at times were heavyhanded, but overall they played a blinder.

And big thank you to Justine and all the mods.

@littlbrowndog

The thing is so we talk here and we read even if we don’t talk here

And then we go about our lives having conversations about the stuff we have learnt here with other people then they talk to other people

I think that’s how it works and it’s so strong

Yes, I think this is important. What is said on here has a wide reach because the audience is so broad. What we read here goes directly into our real lives and conversations. It's very effective and that's why they'd like so much to shut us up.

The 'radicalised by mumsnet' mug sums it up. Mumsnet is such an important place to come to in order to be awakened to what is going on.

I was another 'trans ally' until I came here. I hoovered up an enormous number of threads, with increasing horror, over 48 hours or so. There were already deletions and banned phrases, but I could put it all together. The links and phrases to google filled in the gaps.

Mumsnet provides the open gateway. I'd rather have a modded mumsnet than have it closed.

What we do outside of mumsnet is so important - talking to friends, family, effecting changes at workplaces, schools, and councils, contacting MPs, supporting legal activity, correcting incorrect representations of the equality act, challenging every substitute of 'gender' for 'sex' in every half-baked survey etc.

Thanks. I have loved being part of this political movement. I've never written to an MP before! Now I feel like a proper activist. It's great!

We are not allowed on Trending don’t forget.

I have suspected this for some time.

Is it true - have Mumsnet confirmed this and if so have they given a reasonable reason?

I don’t think the views expressed on here about sex, gender identity, the reality of biology and the treatment of children are remotely radical. They’re mainstream views, which when brought up in real life elicits the response “well of course [insert fact]”.

What is radical to some people is the idea that it would be discussed against their will and opposing views would not only be publicised, but also initiate firm action to say “no”. To those people, it’s a radical idea that they can’t just do whatever they want to progress their ideas without opposition. To them, the idea that people might encourage others to be brave enough to say no is a form of radicalisation when in reality it’s not radicalisation to help others stand up for their rights.

@Needmoresleep

We dont know what was happening behind the scenes, but I have no doubt that it was grim. Constant complaints, threatened law suits, advertiser boycotts, personal attacks.

So many firms caved under far less pressure. Just think of Posie's posters.

MN steered a tricky path through the middle, demonstrating that they were "listening" but keeping the board open. Even though it would have been cheaper and easier to close discussion altogether. Sometimes the necessary compromise is one leaves both sides unhappy. Activists wanted women silenced altogether, so they were the bigger losers.

When the book is written, Justine deserves strong praise for her willingness to stand up for free speech and women's rights. The list of those who did not: Labour, LibDems, SNP, Guardian, BBC, Ocado, Railtrack, Twitter, many Universities, even Murray's school, and on and on is long and shameful.

MN has more balls than Millwall. Yes they made a few mistakes and at times were heavyhanded, but overall they played a blinder.

And big thank you to Justine and all the mods.

yes that's my view too

a lot of organisations caved but MN never did. There were many times when this felt like the last bastion of sanity as everyone and their dog jumped on the bandwagon to insist TWAW and women who disagreed were evil right wing bigots. Ive never voted anything but Labour and been a lifelong atheist and suddenly I was apparently in the pay of right wing chrsitian fundamentalist groups. People who I really admired were on a different side to me and it was hard. This was and still is the only place otside of my family where I can talk openly and without it I think I would have gone mad

if so have they given a reasonable reason

I think the reasonable reason is that they have been under pressure to close the board and discussion down altogether, and so to demonstrate that they are listening, have made some concessions.

In an ideal world they would not make those concessions. But they have done so much more for women than so many firms (M&S, Ocado, John Lewis, Lush) whose primary customer base is female, that we perhaps need to accept that such concessions were necessary. Turning our focus instead on those activists that have wanted women silences and the many organisations that went along with those demands.

@OldCrony

We are not allowed on Trending don’t forget.

I have suspected this for some time.

Is it true - have Mumsnet confirmed this and if so have they given a reasonable reason?

I have a feeling they did. Trending draws on all the nasties ya don't want. I definitely saw that on this board

They must have learned that lesson from experience

I'm inclined to think it's probably not a bad thing to be excluded from 'Trending'. I've never really seen the point of it tbh - I mostly use the app, which doesn't have it anyway. There are usually quite a few FWR threads in Active.

I'm reposting this as I was rather celebratory drunk last night when I posted and there was a typo in the first line. The sentiment is also worth repeating.

I would like to extend my thanks to the women who provide the content here, for free. Their knowledge, tenacity, courage and compassion in the face of utterly hideous woman-hatred and behaviour that would test anyone's mental health, all while living their own difficult lives to boot, has achieved amazing things. They have truly spoken truth to power, and moved mountains.

You, women of FWR, all have my undying respect

@littlbrowndog

The thing is so we talk here and we read even if we don’t talk here

And then we go about our lives having conversations about the stuff we have learnt here with other people then they talk to other people

I think that’s how it works and it’s so strong

YY

I have mainly questions and sarcasm here but I have lots of RL conversations about a whole load of things we discuss here (or that others discuss and I nod along to ).

I have been a Mumsneter since being pregnant with my first child 12 years ago. I was very involved in LGB campaigns in the late 1990s and around 5 years ago started to feel uncomfortable with some of the developments around trans issues. I struggled to find resources to understand what was going on.

I don't know how I came across this board but I found it a couple of years ago and it's been an invaluable source of information. I don't post often but following threads I have written to MSPs, donated to causes and attended events.

Many of my lesbian friends are not mums or on this site, but they have learned through me so the reach of this board is further than just mums.

I have been horrified to see other online spaces for women shut down so am incredibly grateful that this board has remained.

With regards to safeguarding, I cannot fathom why any discussion on this would ever be shut down as I think we all have a responsibility to create a safe environment for children and vulnerable sections of society. When concerns are raised it would be wonderful if we find they are actually unfounded. But they must be raised and discussed. Closing down these discussions reflects poorly on our society.

Like many women I hate to make a fuss, but the world my children live in now is not the world I grew up in. I want to support them as they navigate their teens and Mumsneters have been a valuable support for me to understand what is going on, particularly in their online world and the origins of queer theory (that took me a while to get my head round!)

Threads about experience of racism - fine for trending.

Threads about safeguarding, grooming etc - not fine.

Imagine if MNHQ tried to police the language black people use on the BAME topic as they have here. There would be uproar. We all know why this is. Because our stuff is about men and men in positions of power. Men exploiting their power.

Imagine if MNHQ tried to police the language black people use on the BAME topic as they have here. There would be uproar. We all know why this is. Because our stuff is about men and men in positions of power. Men exploiting their power.

This.

Also, I'm not sure I can ever forgive them for banning Lang, unjustifiably in my opinion.

Same, @Kit19!

I’d like to thank MNHQ for allowing these discussions when no one else would. They haven’t got it 100% correct but who the heck is? Without MN those guidelines would not have been released yesterday.

I don’t think posters should be demanding an apology, but maybe MNHQ will have a rethink about who has been banned.