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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Mermaids and the evolving understanding of gender identity.

313 replies

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 24/09/2020 20:11

Given recent events, I thought it would be interesting to trawl the Wayback Machine and see how the organisation has developed over time with regards to diagnosing children as transgender.

What is Gender Dysphoria?

2009
Gender Identity Disorders in infancy, childhood and adolescence are complex and have varied causes: in the majority of cases the eventual outcome will be homosexuality or bisexuality, but often there will be a heterosexual outcome as some gender issues can be caused by a bereavement, a dysfunctional family life, or (rarely) by abuse. Only a small proportion of cases will result in a transsexual outcome
<a class="break-all" href="https://web.archive.org/web/20090307015630/www.mermaidsuk.org.uk/gidca.html" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">web.archive.org/web/20090307015630/www.mermaidsuk.org.uk/gidca.html

2010
Gender dyphoria, also known as Gender Identity Disorder, applies to someone who is unhappy with their biological sex and who wishes to belong to the other one.

Gender Identity is the sense of belief that "I am male" or "I am female". A child becomes aware of its gender identity before or around the age of five years, in many cases as early as 2 or 3 years of age. In most people their gender identity is the same as their sex, i.e. a woman or girl feels she is female and a man or boy feels he is male, but in a few people their gender identity and their sex do not match, and this can cause problems.

Gender Identity Issues vary considerably, some may be transient in nature, and some may not. They may arise when a child exhibits cross-gender behaviour to some degree or other. Some may be boys who prefer to take the female role or vice versa; others may have a compulsion to play with toys mostly used by the other sex (for instance, a boy who predominantly plays with dolls or a girl who always plays with action men and 'army toys'). Some children may only feel comfortable when playing with peers of the other physical sex, or may cross-dress from time to time.

Some children may be unhappy about their own biological sex and either wish to belong to the other one, or feel that they actually do; some adolescents may experience a crisis over a problem of gender identity or sexual orientation, or both. These situations can lead to considerable concern and distress for all those involved.
<a class="break-all" href="https://web.archive.org/web/20100718215911/www.mermaidsuk.org.uk/New%20Mermaids/whatisgid.htm" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">web.archive.org/web/20100718215911/www.mermaidsuk.org.uk/New%20Mermaids/whatisgid.htm

2012
For example, your daughter may say that she wants to be a boy, or your son may identify himself as a girl. Or perhaps you are worried about your child's cross gender behaviour, but they won't discuss it with you, and instead are isolated and withdrawn.

Or it may be you, as a young person, and you feel that your body is wrong, and that you should have been a girl if you were born a boy, or a boy if you were born a girl.
(Added to 2010 description)
<a class="break-all" href="https://web.archive.org/web/20121109215055/mermaidsuk.org.uk/index.php/what-is-gender-dysphoria" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">web.archive.org/web/20121109215055/mermaidsuk.org.uk/index.php/what-is-gender-dysphoria

They seem to have removed their page about gender dysphoria sometime after 2016. However, we can glean some information about how to diagnose children from their parent testimonials

2019
"Kelly"
“From the age of two we started to notice that Evie didn’t quite fit in. I thought that my son was going to be gay, but it became apparent that there was something more than that.

“Evie always wanted to play with dolls, and never had any interest in traditional boys toys, like cars or dinosaurs. We had an older son and the two could not have been more different.

“Evie loved bracelets and constantly wanted to wear one, and when I bought the children Guess Who? to play she unclipped all the female faces and put them in a handbag to carry around with her.

“Evie would look longingly at other little girls who were wearing dresses or skirts, and every time I picked her up from the childminder she would be have raided the dressing up box for a princess costume. She would come to the door to meet me in a sparkly pink dress and a tiara with a big smile on her face.

“At other children’s houses she would love putting on the princess outfits, and would have a meltdown when she had to take them off as it was time to leave.
<a class="break-all" href="https://web.archive.org/web/20190301090129/www.mermaidsuk.org.uk/parents-voices.html" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">web.archive.org/web/20190301090129/www.mermaidsuk.org.uk/parents-voices.html

"Denise"
“We didn’t notice Sally having any particular problems or issues as she was growing up, but her primary school was very small and the classes were mixed together in infants, so there was no real distinction between boys and girls or age groups.

“But looking back I can see there were pointers. Sally always wanted to play with the dressing up box, and she always wanted to be a princess. She always wanted long hair too.
<a class="break-all" href="https://web.archive.org/web/20190301090129/www.mermaidsuk.org.uk/parents-voices.html" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">web.archive.org/web/20190301090129/www.mermaidsuk.org.uk/parents-voices.html

OP posts:
Thread gallery
15
Lottapianos · 25/09/2020 14:13

'She actually said 'You need to fuck off, you know nothing.''

Dear oh dear oh dear. Not a great look. Sounds like she might be in a panic about something. Cant think what

HPFA · 25/09/2020 14:15

And now we have a firm of solicitors actively touting for business. These people can smell blood.

www.attwatersjamesonhill.co.uk/medical-negligence/transgender-treatment/?fbclid=IwAR34PYnrwGC-UhDHVbgHxLNIZYlgXpSInALxtOxTbWDnn5sQug1F1-pu0dg

MondayYogurt · 25/09/2020 14:20

[quote HPFA]And now we have a firm of solicitors actively touting for business. These people can smell blood.

www.attwatersjamesonhill.co.uk/medical-negligence/transgender-treatment/?fbclid=IwAR34PYnrwGC-UhDHVbgHxLNIZYlgXpSInALxtOxTbWDnn5sQug1F1-pu0dg[/quote]
Good. Losing money is the only thing that will force these organisations to change.

NecessaryScene1 · 25/09/2020 14:31

Transgender Treatment Claims

Negligence in this sensitive area may arise from the hormone treatment involved or the surgery undertaken to transform the body to reflect characteristics of the opposite sex, whether this be a mastectomy, breast augmentation or complete sex reassignment.

Such complex procedures require full psychological assessment and psychiatric input; a valid claim may arise if problems arise because strict guidelines were not adhered to.

This is why Attwaters Jameson Hill’s Medical Negligence solicitors are here.

Okay, NOW people should start panicking.

Thingybob · 25/09/2020 14:34

Has this been posted, Mermaids short video on What is Gender?

mermaidsuk.org.uk/professionals/resources-for-professionals/

merrymouse · 25/09/2020 14:44

Mermaids Susie Green “The mother was absolutely desperate because her daughter is 14, her daughter’s voice has started to break, facial changes and hair are around the corner, her Adam’s apple will become more pronounced. These are changes that will affect her for the rest of her life.”

Interesting to read this in 2020 in the light of stories and court cases involving detransitioners and GIDs.

How do you decide that a child is mature enough to make this decision?

  • particularly when its becoming increasingly apparent that no adult is prepared to pin down what any of this means?
highame · 25/09/2020 14:46

I wonder if Attwaters Jameson Hill are woke......oh my lord, the irony, all those Lawyers who have jumped head first into the woke pit might now be clearing out their rainbow flags in order to pick up work Grin

Datun · 25/09/2020 14:50

[quote Thingybob]Has this been posted, Mermaids short video on What is Gender?

mermaidsuk.org.uk/professionals/resources-for-professionals/[/quote]
It's absolute bollocks, isn't it?

In the first minute gender was all about planes, cars, football, lipstick and cooking.

And a minute and a half later gender was on a spectrum of male to female.

The more they try and explain it, the stupider it becomes.

Datun · 25/09/2020 14:51

[quote HPFA]And now we have a firm of solicitors actively touting for business. These people can smell blood.

www.attwatersjamesonhill.co.uk/medical-negligence/transgender-treatment/?fbclid=IwAR34PYnrwGC-UhDHVbgHxLNIZYlgXpSInALxtOxTbWDnn5sQug1F1-pu0dg[/quote]
Bloody hell.

I'm going to predict that they get inundated.

Whatwouldscullydo · 25/09/2020 14:52

The more they try and explain it, the stupider it becomes

I got as far as tin foil then had to turn off.

Everything contradicts itself. Its absolute bollocks

yourhairiswinterfire · 25/09/2020 14:58

I'm seeing a lot of conversations on Twitter, that go:

Person A: This has always been the stance of Mermaids. They've never claimed a girl playing with boys toys means they're trans or born in the wrong body.

Person B:

A: Those slides are taken out of context.

B:

A: Well, they're just using ''wrong body'' as a metaphor, and it's outdated now anyway. (So their stance hasn't always been this then, has it?)

How many children, some as young as 3, understand metaphors? They don't-they'll hear born in the wrong body and take it literally.

It shouldn't make a difference that they've changed their tune now. It matters that they have said this in the past, and parents and children will have been sucked in. I hope Attwaters Jameson Hill’s Medical Negligence Solicitors will be very busy shortly.

Datun · 25/09/2020 15:03

@Whatwouldscullydo

The more they try and explain it, the stupider it becomes

I got as far as tin foil then had to turn off.

Everything contradicts itself. Its absolute bollocks

Same here. Instead of being blue or pink, she was silver foil that reflects light. I don't know how anyone can take it seriously. I certainly wouldn't put it out as a promotional film.
NotDavidTennant · 25/09/2020 15:07

There is a logical consequence to all this that I don't think is going to play out very well for Susie Green. If trans is not about being born in the wrong body and not about gender dysphoria, then what is the purpose of reassignment surgery?

How long before the TRAs start denounicing reassignment surgery as an unnecessary medical procedure forced on trans people by the 'oppresive' cis medical establishment?

Melroses · 25/09/2020 15:08

Same here. Instead of being blue or pink, she was silver foil that reflects light. I don't know how anyone can take it seriously. I certainly wouldn't put it out as a promotional film.

Brilliant - this sounds as good as the dimmer switch spectrum - must watch!

Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g · 25/09/2020 15:11

It's not two minutes since Action on Trans Health in Edinburgh was demanding that trans people were given free training so they could operate on themselves. edinburghath.tumblr.com/post/163521055802/trans-health-manifesto

I've just seen a desperate attempt on Twitter to explain the BITWB phrase as best avoided because we wouldn't be rude enough to say that someone was BITWB if they needed an operation for any other reason, e.g. gallstones, I suppose. Dear me.

Datun · 25/09/2020 15:14

It's not two minutes since Action on Trans Health in Edinburgh was demanding that trans people were given free training so they could operate on themselves.

Oh dear, that's just made me absolutely lose it. 🤣

Datun · 25/09/2020 15:16

Don't forget they wanted the immediate release of all trans prisoners as well.

And they were asked to submit evidence and testimonials for the government's transgender equality report.

Dear lord.

RedDogsBeg · 25/09/2020 15:30

[quote HPFA]And now we have a firm of solicitors actively touting for business. These people can smell blood.

www.attwatersjamesonhill.co.uk/medical-negligence/transgender-treatment/?fbclid=IwAR34PYnrwGC-UhDHVbgHxLNIZYlgXpSInALxtOxTbWDnn5sQug1F1-pu0dg[/quote]
Once the sharks in suits start circling you know it's game over.

HPFA · 25/09/2020 15:30

@NotDavidTennant

There is a logical consequence to all this that I don't think is going to play out very well for Susie Green. If trans is not about being born in the wrong body and not about gender dysphoria, then what is the purpose of reassignment surgery?

How long before the TRAs start denounicing reassignment surgery as an unnecessary medical procedure forced on trans people by the 'oppresive' cis medical establishment?

I saw on a Twitter thread that some trans people are now saying that the transition is wrong because it's conforming to cis heteronormativity.
Melroses · 25/09/2020 15:43

@Melroses

Same here. Instead of being blue or pink, she was silver foil that reflects light. I don't know how anyone can take it seriously. I certainly wouldn't put it out as a promotional film.

Brilliant - this sounds as good as the dimmer switch spectrum - must watch!

I got past the silver foil, but it was doing my head in so I stopped.
NotDavidTennant · 25/09/2020 15:55

I saw on a Twitter thread that some trans people are now saying that the transition is wrong because it's conforming to cis heteronormativity.

If that kind of thinking takes hold I can really see them turning on Susie for transitioning Jackie.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 25/09/2020 16:01

Surely Mermaids have to be very careful here - what happens when parents who have transitioned their children on advice from Mermaids read that Mermaids are now saying that they never said these things. How are these parents going to feel?

OP posts:
HPFA · 25/09/2020 16:03

@NotDavidTennant

I saw on a Twitter thread that some trans people are now saying that the transition is wrong because it's conforming to cis heteronormativity.

If that kind of thinking takes hold I can really see them turning on Susie for transitioning Jackie.

Sometimes I think I should just give money to the crowdfunders and stop trying to engage in the debate at all. It just makes your head ache.

I mean, people are telling you that you're a horrible bigot and reactionary and want trans people to die but when you ask a simple question like "what does it mean to be a woman if it doesn't mean biology or stereotypes or behaviour" they can't answer. How can they claim that people's identity as a woman is so important to them that they'll die if you don't affirm it but at the same time it's a totally meaningless word and they might as well identify as a table?

Whatwouldscullydo · 25/09/2020 16:04

If that kind of thinking takes hold I can really see them turning on Susie for transitioning Jackie

Would also remove the last of the "ammo"

I mean if they don't need surgery or the clothes or the hair and make up then just how can people identify them as trans to beat them up in a toilet ir bully them to the point of being suicidal...

I mean no one would know would they.
You really would be seen once and for all to be lobbying for bots and meb to have access to all womens spaces and opportunities based on what they say that cant be defined

ItalianHat · 25/09/2020 16:04

All about how "born in the wrong body" was a simplified explanation for people

You see, I can sort of understand the dysphoria around your body. I think most women can - we live in a culture which pressures girls & women's bodies in almost every way.

But the binary deluded thinking that if you're not happy in a male body, then you must of course"really" be female is odd. How do you know?

I think that you can feel that your body's "wrong" - but I don't think you can then automatically know what that a different body would feel "right."