Updated relationships, sex and health curriculum guidance

[umbel]

Updated government guidance, released today!!!

Also, JJ, fertile adults, who enjoy a sex life, have full cognitive ability, and can choose or not to be on lifelong medication, don't get to decide that other people's children can't.

You've neatly avoided and obfuscated the point yet again, OldCrone and indeed several other posters on here are making.

We are told it is acceptance without exception, if an adult male states he is a woman without making or intending to make any changes whatsoever to his appearance or physicality him and everything about him is female BUT children MUST be put on a pathway of medical intervention and change their appearance and physicality. Why? Explain why adults are to be accepted just because they say so and proudly trot out idiocies like 'lady dick' yet children must have irreversible medical intervention to be accepted as transgender?

There’s a case in the US now where a man is on death row for a double murder committed when he was 19. The argument is that at that age the brain isn’t mature enough and (to paraphrase) you can make shot decisions that you just wouldn’t do when matured. And they say 2 year olds are expressing a desire to be what now?

Let the lawsuits begin:
www.attwatersjamesonhill.co.uk/medical-negligence/transgender-treatment/?fbclid=IwAR2-nifmbAU140_1ZAbPN76ZlwTZNRwZ6H7MEVMJsh8h305UvDcteGorcWk

@CorvusPurpureus

*Anyway, here's a central problem: roughly 80% of kids who are referred for gender dysphoria grow out of it. & no one knows which child is the one in five that won't.

So prescribing puberty blockers is doing harm in the vast majority of cases. This is unacceptable. It needs to stop.*

We know, from the figures, that the vast majority of trans kids never get near the Tavistock and that most kids who do do not have any treatment. Clinicians are well aware of desistance, and you are right many gender nonconforming children grow out of it. But even Steensma, who did the research the 80% figure comes from (and that paper is not without criticisms), acknowledges that when gender dysphoria in childhood is persistent and consistent and endures at the onset of puberty then it almost always produces trans adults.

I agree that precise diagnosis is vital. I think puberty blockers should be used sparingly and that they are. Only a tiny fraction of trans children ever have this treatment in the UK, it now looks like the numbers are levelling off, and according to the Tavistock at least these young people are thriving. Hopefully the review will give us more information on how the clinic operates and I fully support it. But cautious support for puberty blockers in a small number of cases is nothing to do with 'dark forces' whoever you think they might be.

Anyway this isa bit off topic, although the same principle applies ot trans inclusive policies in school. Trans adults do not support them because they are being secretly influenced by sinister puppermasters, or are trying to normalise a fetish, but because we recognise that these are thing which might have helped us - and also because we have the scars from living through the alternative.

@Datun

Surely you can accept that the most likely reason trans adults support these policies and treatment is because we recognise it as something that might have helped us, and we don't want trans kids growing up with the same experiences we did of exclusion, bullying, self hatred and denial

Well if we're back anecdotes again, then you might want to read the grim stream of experiences coming from women who have been married to men who come out as women.

And how no one - friends, family, wives, children, parents, had ever seen the slightest hint of them having gender dysphoria or identifying as the opposite sex until they were middle-aged.

And they re-write their history to the shock and bemusement of everyone who's ever known them.

Indeed. Denial fucks people up. So far better to support young trans people instead of pushing them into the closet which can take decades to get over. You want there to be no more trans widows. Then get behind supporting young trans people to be able to come out safely and with dignity instead of burying themselves in shame and living a lie with all the consequences for them and others that brings.

The medical treatment of children and school policies and practice should be guided and influenced by those qualified in medicine, education, child development and psychology working in partnership with the parents / carers of children. Children should not be subject to the demands of special interest pressure groups or other unqualified individuals.

Indeed. Denial fucks people up. So far better to support young trans people instead of pushing them into the closet which can take decades to get over. You want there to be no more trans widows. Then get behind supporting young trans people to be able to come out safely and with dignity instead of burying themselves in shame and living a lie with all the consequences for them and others that brings.

The majority of those married to trans widows would not have experienced gender dysphoria as a child. I think it's naive to think young children with dysphoria are in anyway the same demographic as those who in middle age persuade their wives to agree to going public with cross dressing and be part of a 'lesbian' relationship.

@RedDogsBeg

You've neatly avoided and obfuscated the point yet again, OldCrone and indeed several other posters on here are making.

We are told it is acceptance without exception, if an adult male states he is a woman without making or intending to make any changes whatsoever to his appearance or physicality him and everything about him is female BUT children MUST be put on a pathway of medical intervention and change their appearance and physicality. Why? Explain why adults are to be accepted just because they say so and proudly trot out idiocies like 'lady dick' yet children must have irreversible medical intervention to be accepted as transgender?

I think this is a bit of a straw man. I don't think anyone is saying that all trans kids should be given puberty blockers. That's certainly not my position. But in some cases, where gender dysphoria is acute and persistent then I think they can have beneficial uses.

Which is exactly the same position I have with trans adults. Not everyone will want surgery, or be able to have it for health or financial reasons. The same applies to hormones although in my experience pretty much everyone I know who lives full time in their aquired gender is either taking hormones or on a waiting list. But again there may be some people who choose not to, or are unable to, and I don't think they should be invalidated, or that their experiences are inauthentic.

Ah yes, validation that's what it's all about.

Indeed. Denial fucks people up. So far better to support young trans people instead of pushing them into the closet which can take decades to get over. You want there to be no more trans widows. Then get behind supporting young trans people to be able to come out safely and with dignity instead of burying themselves in shame and living a lie with all the consequences for them and others that brings.

So none of these Middle Aged male (always male...) transitioners have AGP then? Really? None at all? All have spent their lives in turmoil, and misunderstood.

Indeed. Denial fucks people up. So far better to support young trans people instead of pushing them into the closet which can take decades to get over. You want there to be no more trans widows. Then get behind supporting young trans people to be able to come out safely and with dignity instead of burying themselves in shame and living a lie with all the consequences for them and others that brings.

You're seriously saying that men who cross stress, and have now found legitimacy under the Stonewall umbrella, and will happily talk about their gender euphoria are actually in denial about gender dysphoria?

@OvaHere

Indeed. Denial fucks people up. So far better to support young trans people instead of pushing them into the closet which can take decades to get over. You want there to be no more trans widows. Then get behind supporting young trans people to be able to come out safely and with dignity instead of burying themselves in shame and living a lie with all the consequences for them and others that brings.

The majority of those married to trans widows would not have experienced gender dysphoria as a child. I think it's naive to think young children with dysphoria are in anyway the same demographic as those who in middle age persuade their wives to agree to going public with cross dressing and be part of a 'lesbian' relationship.

@OvaHere

The majority of those married to trans widows would not have experienced gender dysphoria as a child.

How do you know? Not one person knew I experienced gender dysphoria as a child. Not one, I put on a fine performance that I invested everything I had in because I was terrified of being discovered. But it was always there, from my earliest memories, and trying desperately to suppress for three decades mostly using drugs and alcohol didn't do me any favours at all. And yes, I ashamed I had relationships where I wasn't honest with my partner about who I was. I'm ashamed lied my way through impotence counselling when I knew exactly what the problem was. And luckily, possibly because of a more accepting world, I managed to shake that off and start to be honest with people who were close to me once i got into my 30s although it took longer than that before I was out to everyone. But I have every sympathy for people who felt unable to do that, especially those older who grew up in even more intolerant times. There were plenty of gays and lesbians who came out in middle age in the 80s, and they too probably hurt people they cared about. But no-one ever tried to claim this was some kind of gayness that had descended in middle age when they'd always been straight, and the same applies to trans people. People were scared and forced to live a lie. It's precisely that that is the reason we don;t want to see another generation go through the same shit.

JJ, You're in danger, again, of projection, here. Your personal experience, difficult though it is, it's not going to be used as criteria.

Googling girls like us, or trans girls, will absolutely tell you that there are a great deal of men identifying as women who have never had gender dysphoria in their life.

There are very many Grayson Perrys in this world. And, contrary to what you might wish, they are only too happy to talk about their experiences.

I'm confused about what you are trying to say here. If you don't know anyone who experienced dysphoria as a child then affirming trans kids (who do have dysphoria) isn't going to prevent future trans widows is it? Which was your premise earlier.

Anyway, in terms of the OP, mermaid seems to have changed their minds again.

They've gone from born in the wrong body to, not born in the wrong body to not sure about being born in the wrong body, to taking it all down from twitter.

@OvaHere

I'm confused about what you are trying to say here. If you don't know anyone who experienced dysphoria as a child then affirming trans kids (who do have dysphoria) isn't going to prevent future trans widows is it? Which was your premise earlier.

I didn't say I didn't know anyone who experienced dysphoria as a child. I did for a start.

It's interesting that a charity who has devoted their entire time for decades to children who say they are transgender suddenly have no clue what to say, or do.

Some common sense guidance from the government, and mermaids are changing their mind so fast it must be giving them whiplash.

Not one person knew I experienced gender dysphoria as a child. Not one

I didn't say I didn't know anyone who experienced dysphoria as a child

Is this, erm, 'mermaids logic'?

This article in the DM reports on the new guidance, but only halfway down and not in the headline. Almost as a side note:

The comments are part of a slide presentation in a module on 'respectful relationships', as part of the new relationships and sex education curriculum beginning this year.

But the headline news is in itself refreshing:
Woke 'cancel culture' is a form of bullying and 'no platforming' an attack on free speech, pupils will be taught

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8774625/Woke-cancel-culture-form-bullying-pupils-taught.html

Is that the sound of a house of cards falling? Well done UK (or is it just England?)

I didn't say I didn't know anyone who experienced dysphoria as a child. I did for a start.

Apologies, I misread your first sentence. I see now you were talking about yourself. That's why I was confused.

I still agree with Datun's point though that children and middle age transitioners are not the same demographic, there may be some crossover there but certainly not for all or even most.

And adult men, who are fertile, possibly fathered children, have a sex life, and have cognitive ability, having never been on experimental drugs as a child, should not be making decisions about young children.

There appears to be a theme that these older men would pass better, if they had had the opportunity to transition pre puberty.

That should rarely, if ever, be a consideration.

Where the research, money and resources should be going, is on the causes of gender dysphoria.

Not on how to accommodate it.

All the people you call TRAs seem to have no problems with the new guidelines.

Where are you finding this please? I just see many toys being thrown out of pram. And mass transphobia accusations.

In many ways its positive because it means trans kids can should no longer feel pressurised to adopt gender stereotyoes to be recognised in their aquired gender.

Yes, of course it positive news! Kids should be able to have their own personalities and likes, without being told this means they are actually the opposite sex

Veeeery interesting though, that your mind is straight to 'transkids' rather than..well kids in general. They were being pressured, however it was not from the 'side' you think, was the likes of Mermaids who were causing problems and making out stereotypes are anything bar stereotypes. That this seems to be getting sorted, its good news.

Its absolutely baffling that Mermaids were ever taken seriously with the jellybaby rubbish. So am extremely glad that to fit in with the guidance, they will have to be a bit more reasonable than they have been. Its good for GNC kids the country over, regardless of if they would have been one of the few who does grow up to be trans or not.

Also, even if TRAs were over the moon about this, I would still also be happy. As its the right decision. Not petty enough to say 'oh, the opposition likes it so I must hate it!' like so many seem to..

And adult men, who are fertile, possibly fathered children, have a sex life, and have cognitive ability, having never been on experimental drugs as a child, should not be making decisions about young children

This has to be a huge issue. What ever the feelings they have now, they were given the opportunity to mature. To think. To inform themselves. I mean i feel for the wives and children who essentially now have to live with the fact that their husband/father now claims to be something that means they would never have existed, but i also think that it highlights the narcissism and the selfishness in way that helps prove the point that actually these people are not best placed to have an input on what happens to the children because they can only see it one way. They can't see how it deprives children of the choices they had. Because essentially they had it all. Family, friends, career etc