Updated relationships, sex and health curriculum guidance

[umbel]

Updated government guidance, released today!!!

@Ereshkigalangcleg

On Sally's thread.

That's a TRA. Interesting what they focus on, isn't it?

Ah thank you, that makes complete sense now

twitter.com/wuffgrrl/status/1309390142235389958

Interesting also that Mermaids is now saying the exact same thing as feminists were, but now they are trying to twist it to be..'this has always been the advice, GCs rely on stereotypes not us'?!

Makes you wonder if the legal letters have arrived on the doormat(s).

Yeah but we have the receipts .

it highlights the narcissism and the selfishness in way that helps prove the point that actually these people are not best placed to have an input on what happens to the children because they can only see it one way. They can't see how it deprives children of the choices they had. Because essentially they had it all. Family, friends, career etc

Yes, absolutely agree

jj I'm sure we've had this discussion before, but what is your explanation for the fact that nearly all the people who suddenly come out as trans in middle age are male, but the majority of children who identify as trans are female?

If all the men who are now coming out as trans after marrying women and fathering children have always known they were trans and have suffered from gender dysphoria their whole lives, why is it that more girls than boys identify as transgender? And if all the girls who identify as transgender in their teens are really transgender, why aren't there more women than men coming out as transgender in middle age?

Posting before catching up on all comments so apologies if this has been noted already.

Those criteria for gender dysphoria don't adequately filter out the three-letter-acronym that dare not speak its name.

My ex meets five of them now; if he insisted he's a woman that'd be six. He is a self-identified AGP who can trace the development of this characteristic back to childhood.

The way those diagnostic criteria are phrased needs some serious rethinking.

It's so great news. Wrong body theory felt so like conversion therapy, you must be changed if you won't comply to the norm.

@JamieLeeCurtains

Makes you wonder if the legal letters have arrived on the doormat(s).

Indeed 😏

Oh that Animal Farm reference is spot on, siameasy "Some animals remembered or thought they remembered . . "
(I've got nothing to add, just thought it was brilliant :) )

Did we ever get an answer to my question of what is trans?

The diagnostic criteria, with or without the gender stereotypes removed, are just a bizarre exercise in circularity.

Did we ever get an answer to my question of what is trans?

Nope.

From what I understand of jj, they are very keen for peer reviewed research into this. I agree and think it is a great idea.

Looking at OldCrone’s question, I think a good place to start would be to look if there are different characteristics of the middle aged males vs the teenaged females.

Maybe looking at to which extent they are very unhappy or euphorically happy in their bodies even through their “gender identity” does not correspond?

I think a good place to start would be a qualitative analysis of their respective Twitter and Instagram accounts, just to get some rich and vivid data around what the issues and considerations are.

After all, we are all different (which is great), but their may be certain groupings?

I'm sure James Caspian would love to get on with his peer-reviewed research at university. Unfortunately, he was prevented.

@OldCrone

jj I'm sure we've had this discussion before, but what is your explanation for the fact that nearly all the people who suddenly come out as trans in middle age are male, but the majority of children who identify as trans are female?

If all the men who are now coming out as trans after marrying women and fathering children have always known they were trans and have suffered from gender dysphoria their whole lives, why is it that more girls than boys identify as transgender? And if all the girls who identify as transgender in their teens are really transgender, why aren't there more women than men coming out as transgender in middle age?

I'm not sure the differences are as stark as you suggest. This study found the average of of trans men seeking treatment was 24, and trans women 34: www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6189985/

So yes there is a difference, but it's not trans women coming out in middle age by and large. As to why there is a difference, well I think we can only speculate, I'm not aware of any published research. It's possibly because femininity in boys is more socially punished and policed than it is in girls, so trans women have more to work through before they feel able to come out, it could be that trans men seek treatment younger because of the threat of pregnancy, I really don't know, I don't think anyone does. I think it's important to note though that there has been considerable variation in ratios of trans men/trans women in different places and at different times. I know you won't like the source but Zinnia Jones discusses this and provides evidence

"Vujovic et al. (2009) reported a sex ratio of 1:1 trans men to trans women in Serbia, consistent throughout 20 years, while Olsson & Möller (2003) noted a ratio of 1:1 in Sweden in the late 1960s. Godlewski (1988) found a sex ratio of 5.5:1 trans men to trans women in Poland over six years; Cohen-Kettenis & Gooren (1999) later reported a ratio of 5:1 trans men to trans women in Poland and Czechoslovakia. Okabe et al. (2008) found a ratio of 1.5:1 trans men to trans women in Japan, and Garrels et al. (2001) found that while the ratio in Germany was 2:1 trans women to trans men from 1970 to 1994, this later decreased to 1.2:1 after 1994. Sex ratios of trans people seeking transition treatment have varied across regions and across time, with trans men constituting a majority in several places, far longer than ten years ago"

Well, given that Mermaids now seem to re-evaluate their linguistic position and has asked for feedback, they may be keen to support research into both subgroups of transgender people and de-transitioning?

Maybe in these new and clearer times, there will be an increased support into research such as James Caspian’s? I believe jj considered the main objection to his research being some data handling issues (?) and I am sure any such considerations can be swiftly resolved.

Maybe someone with twitter can suggest that to Mermaids?

If jj comes back, I would love to hear their view on this!!!

Well I doubt Mermaids will be undertaking research, it's not really their role, they are a support group for trans kids and their families. But I absolutely support research into detransitioners that is ethical and employs sound methodology and if Caspian could have addressed the concerns about confidentiality then I would have supported that. I think the more research the better. My understanding is that the lack of research on detransitioners is largely because no-one's ever been able to find enough of them to constitute a meaningful sample size. That's why Caspian extended his remit to recruiting people via the internet who had not had medical treatment, which I think is where the ethics committee objected and said his methodology did not adequately protect confidentiality.

@JamieLeeCurtains

I'm sure James Caspian would love to get on with his peer-reviewed research at university. Unfortunately, he was prevented.

I''m sure James would agree. Such a shame so many researchers, medics and others have been bullied out of researching so many legitimate areas of this issue, Just imagine how much vital information we would have about the nature of ROGD, the long impacts of puberty blockers on growing children's bodies, their future sex lives and fertility has research not been forbidden by the lobby groups.

@jj1968

Well I doubt Mermaids will be undertaking research, it's not really their role, they are a support group for trans kids and their families. But I absolutely support research into detransitioners that is ethical and employs sound methodology and if Caspian could have addressed the concerns about confidentiality then I would have supported that. I think the more research the better. My understanding is that the lack of research on detransitioners is largely because no-one's ever been able to find enough of them to constitute a meaningful sample size. That's why Caspian extended his remit to recruiting people via the internet who had not had medical treatment, which I think is where the ethics committee objected and said his methodology did not adequately protect confidentiality.

I think someone had better be careful about defamatory language regarding this named university researcher tbh.

This is all so confusing. Looking at the internet, several sources seem to suggest that it was more of a concern of being politically incorrect and “cause offence”? I am sure everyone agrees that it would be crazy to terminate such important research to avoid a backlash?

It also seems that a major concern for Caspian was that previous research was out of date (including the one jj linked to - thank you!). It also appears that the research above excluded females under 18, which seems to be a main current population in this?

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2019/02/19/proposal-research-trans-regret-rejected-university-fear-backlash/amp/

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4979498/amp/James-Caspian-attacked-transgender-children-comments.html

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.somersetlive.co.uk/news/somerset-news/bath-spa-university-james-caspian-2557060.amp

I don’t in any way suggest that Mermaids or Stonewall should do the research. However, their firm support for Caspian to continue his research (subject to confidentiality resolutions) and possibly extend it to different motivations in subgroups would be very valuable in persuading the university to restart this

CoffeeTeaChocolate
Dr Deborah Soh is very interesting when talking about why researchers have been bullied out of researching anything to do with trans issues. Her podcast with Jo Rogan is well worth listening to. He's a great interviewer.

@CoffeeTeaChocolate

The University deny that the research was rejected due to the subject matter and that appears to be backed by the Office of the Independent Adjudicator for Higher Education. Perhaps they are fibbing, who knows, if it gets to the European courts (which I very much doubt) maybe we'll find out.

"Bath Spa University carried out a review of the complaint made by Mr James Caspian at the time.

"His research proposal was not refused because of the subject matter, but rather because of his proposed methodological approach.

"The university was not satisfied this approach would guarantee the anonymity of his participants or the confidentiality of the data.

"Mr Caspian first took the matter to the High Court In May 2017, and the Court concluded then that Mr Caspian’s application for a judicial review was “totally without merit”.

"The outcome of the University’s review was also separately considered by the Office of the Independent Adjudicator for Higher Education. The OIA determined last October that the University’s conclusion in respect of Mr Caspian’s research was “reasonable."

if it gets to the European courts (which I very much doubt)

Why? Inequality of arms?

jj

I'm not sure the differences are as stark as you suggest. This study found the average of of trans men seeking treatment was 24, and trans women 34:
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6189985

Firstly it is a study in adults only. Excluding those aged less than 18 years excludes adolescent girls and raises the mean age.

Secondly the study refers to the ages of natal females and natal males, not transmen and transwomen. Some of the participants were non-binary.

From the paper:
'A total of 153 individuals attended for assessment (of 162 referred); 97 (63.4%) were natal males and 56 (36.6%) were natal females...

Eighty-seven patients sought transition from male to female, and 46 from female to male, while a smaller group (n = 13) had non-binary presentations ... The natal females were significantly younger than their male counterparts at referral: there was a mean difference of 10.5 years (t(160) = 5.5, P < 0.001), with a mean age of 34.4 years for males and 24.3 years for females.'

'