Updated relationships, sex and health curriculum guidance

[umbel]

Updated government guidance, released today!!!

@jj1968, it has been explained to you over and over, eloquently and patiently.

but thinking you might be rans is no more a safeguarding risk then thinking you might be gay so I don;t see why it would be appropriate to flag this up as a potential risk.

So how come every trans organisation says half these kids are suicidal?

Honestly. It's incoherent nonsense.

@titchy

The problem with trying to shoe-horn gay as the comparator, is that being gay doesn't require any changes to the child's school environment or their physiology. Being trans does. They're hardly comparable.

Well actually it doesn't, only if the child feels ready to come out and socially transition should that apply, at which point I fully support the involvement of parents unless it is judged that places the child at risk of significant harm.

And schools have nothing to do with any medical decisions which could be made (and which under current rules may be kept confidential from parents, although obviously the upcmong case may affect that). This is about names and pronouns, pretty much, there is no inherent safeguarding risk to a child socially transitioning, any more than there is a child coming out as openly lesbian or gay.

@Datun

but thinking you might be rans is no more a safeguarding risk then thinking you might be gay so I don;t see why it would be appropriate to flag this up as a potential risk.

So how come every trans organisation says half these kids are suicidal?

Honestly. It's incoherent nonsense.

LGB children are also more likely to have poorer mental health and a higher risk of suicidal ideation. That is no reason for them to be routinely outed to their families against their wishes.

there is no inherent safeguarding risk to a child socially transitioning, any more than there is a child coming out as openly lesbian or gay.

Children transition because of sexual trauma, possible undiagnosed autism, or homophobic bullying.

You're not actually listening to anyone.

Binders are a huge safeguarding issue- they are basically self harm.
Parents should absolutely be aware of a child wants to wear a binder.

@Datun

there is no inherent safeguarding risk to a child socially transitioning, any more than there is a child coming out as openly lesbian or gay.

Children transition because of sexual trauma, possible undiagnosed autism, or homophobic bullying.

You're not actually listening to anyone.

Perhaps you can point to some peer reviewed evidence that demonstrates this. Otherwise it is simply speculation, and thankfully the new guidelines insist on RSE policies being evidenced based.

There is however a wealth of scientific literature which demonstrates the validity of trans children, and which universally supports transition in some cases. Even the Zuckers and the Blanchards of the world would agree. That is why the new guidelines mandate schools to teach children about trans people.

Maybe explain what you mean by transition (in relation to children)

jj

The Tavistock themselves have confirmed that they are worried children are being transitioned because of homophobia.

Thirty five of them have left in protest, and there is currently a judicial review.

The statistics for children with autism who transition are readily available.

And detransitioners will tell you about sexual trauma.

But it's irrelevant, really.

And what you think is irrelevant.

Fortunately, the D of E have decided that parents must be included in any discussion about trans identified children.

End of story.

@SerenityNowwwww

Maybe explain what you mean by transition (in relation to children)

I mean social transition in the context of schools, so changing names, pronouns, clothing within uniform guidelines, that kind of thing. Schools do not make decisions about medical treatment so that's a different discussion.

The new guidelines merely mandate that standard policy, practice and professional and legal standards that are nationally expected of schools must be followed, and that the loopholes in practice that have allowed for questionable things to happen must be closed.

Unless you are fed up that bad practice is being stopped - which would imply that you believe the achievements of that bad practice are worth the unacceptable parts - what is there to complain about?

It doesn't really matter if Mermaids or anyone else is resentful that poor due diligence and questionable, against policy actions by schools are now being sorted out. This is the DfE who were not by any means fast to act in this, things have been allowed to go a very long way before this guidance has been issued, one could say that the possible advantages of not regulated were tested to destruction. If they'd proved to be an unquestionably good thing in experimentation and outcome, presumably the DfE would not have issued this guidance.

Trigger warning:
If you don't tell parents of children with suicidal ideation about their feelings and relevant issues then the parents can't protect them outside school. I've watched the fallout in a school where an adult decided to keep a child's disclosure about their feelings and that child killed themselves that weekend. The parents had no clue about the seriousness because this adult decided they knew better than the school's safeguarding policy about sharing confidences.

That child could have possibly been supported - we'll never know because an individual adult decided that they knew better and the parents are left with the loss of their child and knowing that they might have been able to prevent their death.

Go away with your sanctimonious ignorant comments. Such arrogance in lecturing women trained in safeguarding, child & adolescent development, education & child psychology.

@Datun

jj

The Tavistock themselves have confirmed that they are worried children are being transitioned because of homophobia.

Thirty five of them have left in protest, and there is currently a judicial review.

The statistics for children with autism who transition are readily available.

And detransitioners will tell you about sexual trauma.

But it's irrelevant, really.

And what you think is irrelevant.

Fortunately, the D of E have decided that parents must be included in any discussion about trans identified children.

End of story.

@Datun

I asked for something peer reviewed. Not the testimony of a couple of anonymous ex clinicians as reported by the Murdoch press. You know, actual proper evidence for your assertions. Got any?

@MichelleofzeResistance

The new guidelines merely mandate that standard policy, practice and professional and legal standards that are nationally expected of schools must be followed, and that the loopholes in practice that have allowed for questionable things to happen must be closed.

Unless you are fed up that bad practice is being stopped - which would imply that you believe the achievements of that bad practice are worth the unacceptable parts - what is there to complain about?

It doesn't really matter if Mermaids or anyone else is resentful that poor due diligence and questionable, against policy actions by schools are now being sorted out. This is the DfE who were not by any means fast to act in this, things have been allowed to go a very long way before this guidance has been issued, one could say that the possible advantages of not regulated were tested to destruction. If they'd proved to be an unquestionably good thing in experimentation and outcome, presumably the DfE would not have issued this guidance.

Nobody is complaining. Not one trans person I follow on social media has a problem with these guidelines, and everyone's a bit bemused at the celebrations tbh. Nothing's really changed and the vast majority of trans people have been saying for years it's got nothing to do with gender stereotypes so these guidelines have been largely welcomed.

Some examples to help jj1967:

If a child told a teacher I think I might be trans and they have a chat about it, the child said they were quite happy not doing about this at present they were just sharing some thoughts about their identity exploration - no safeguarding risk no need to share with parents. But you'd monitor.

If a child said they were trans were deeply unhappy because they could not be open about this due to their parents response. School would discuss with safeguarding lead and make a decision on next steps with outside agency advice. Might be to monitor with the child, or be to discuss with parents (with child's knowledge) as child's mental health deterioration makes it safeguarding, again with outside agency and then monitor.

If a child is wanting to socially transition in school but not tell parents, school would need to consider seriously why they would not involve parents, and if this is due to fear of parental reaction, then that is safeguarding and outside agency involvement.

For what reasons can you offer school would not involve parents? If school are concerned about how parents might treat a child they have to involve parents to address this, not collude in keeping a secret.

The idea that the best strategy is for the school to collude in helping a child lead a double life is an insane type of safeguarding i.e. not safeguarding at all.

The comparison with gay, is that if there are no safeguarding concerns around sexual activity or mental health then it is a private matter for the child, not safeguarding, and does not need to be shared. Although you'd keep an eye on this to ensure safeguarding concerns do not arise.

Safeguarding means things cease to be private and need to be shared and parents have to then be involved.

jj1968 - it's not just 'a couple of anonymous ex clinicians', but you know that. You're just sealioning.

It's great that the government have reacted so sensibly to close loopholes that were being exploited by bad actors like Mermaids.

& I can tell you this much: schools have been full of teachers questioning them, & their methods, for years.

There's going to be a teacher like me in every staffroom quietly raising their concerns with senior leadership, & pointing to the government guidance, & there'll be a lot of HTs, however personally 'woke', deciding 'fuck that - I'm not getting these organisations in if I'm at risk of irate parents, staff whistlebowers AND a probable knuckle rap from the D of E'.

The wheels are off this juggernaut, & not a bloody moment too soon.

I asked for something peer reviewed. Not the testimony of a couple of anonymous ex clinicians as reported by the Murdoch press. You know, actual proper evidence for your assertions. Got any?

What apart from the country's only child gender clinic being investigated because of whistleblowers? 🤣

Stamp your foot all you like.

Neither you, not anyone else is allowed to transition children in school without informing their parents.

It's over.

@BabyItsAWildWorld

I don't disagree with anything you say. There is no reason to inform parents unless social transition is imminent or some other safeguarding risk is identified. But of course, if the child seeks to socially transition, then parental involvement and support should happen all cases unless it creates a major risk. If parental support or consent is not gievn then schools need to manage that on a case by case basis I guess. I don't really see how a school can stop a child experimenting with presentation (within uniform rules of course) or asking people to use a different name or pronoun so I imagine this is difficult on the rare occassions it happens, and if it does the safety and education of the child should be paramount.

The idea that the best strategy is for the school to collude in helping a child lead a double life is an insane type of safeguarding i.e. not safeguarding at all.

I don't think it's the best strategy, it's awful and probably unworkable and something that should only really happen in extremis when there is deemed to be a significant risk to the child.

Well said, Datun.

@CorvusPurpureus

There's going to be a teacher like me in every staffroom quietly raising their concerns with senior leadership, & pointing to the government guidance, & there'll be a lot of HTs, however personally 'woke', deciding 'fuck that - I'm not getting these organisations in if I'm at risk of irate parents, staff whistlebowers AND a probable knuckle rap from the D of E'.

Which organisations? Mermaids have seven staff. I think GIRES have about 3. Neither of them deliver RSE sessions and neither do Stonewall. This idea that these tiny charities are going into schools and indoctrinating kids en masse was always a conspiracy theory. Have they been into your school to teach children directly. Or the school of any other teacher you know?

Nobody is complaining. Not one trans person I follow on social media has a problem with these guidelines, and everyone's a bit bemused at the celebrations tbh

So you - and the people you follow on social media - don't understand why women and mothers are glad when safeguarding loopholes are closed and that their children and all children will now be safer in schools?

That their children and all children will no longer be exposed to groups who espouse sexist stereotypes such as the 'Barbie' to 'GI Joe' Mermaids gender spectrum?

You don't understand why women celebrate when children are safer?

OK.

I don't think it's the best strategy, it's awful and probably unworkable and something that should only really happen in extremis when there is deemed to be a significant risk to the child

And surely teachers already have an idea of which kids are at risk and already sought advice or passed on to the relevant bodies these risks.

In which case these children are probably already undergoing god knows what at home which would indicate that the trans revelation could come from some kind of trauma akd that should be investigated not affirmed.

Its these groups that are planting the ideas in the schools head that previously loving parents that have never been on the radar are suddenly unsafe because they might want to look into why the kid is coming out as trans and not immediately taking them.to primark for unicorn dresses and jo jo bows.

Why would this child be unsafe at home? The homphobic parents will be thrilled their kid is trans and not gay.

Parents who want to make sure their child is OK and not talking to dodgy people on line or genuinely don't believe in this ideology are a danger to the income and missions of the lobby groups not the child.dont fall for it.

That's a lot of pages arguing about a lot of stuff, if everyone -- Trans groups / Mermaids etc love the guidance, agree with it, and never thought gender stereotypes had anything to do with it anyway...

I rejoice, because it looks like the grown ups have re-entered the building. Wahoo!

Which organisations? Mermaids have seven staff. I think GIRES have about 3. Neither of them deliver RSE sessions and neither do Stonewall. This idea that these tiny charities are going into schools and indoctrinating kids en masse was always a conspiracy theory. Have they been into your school to teach children directly. Or the school of any other teacher you know?

What you are saying here is nonsense. GIRES specifically featured on the lesson plans that were going to be delivered in my children's school. Mermaids do 'training and lesson plans' for schools. Stonewall have an actual schools accreditation!

Why are you peddling the total bullshit that they have never had any influence in schools?

You just seem to be like all the rest of them at the moment who, as it all starts to unravel, have their own version of the truth and will just keep repeating it over and over in the hope that something sticks.

The women on this forum have spent years looking into this. The wool cannot be pulled over their eyes. The game is up. Sorry.

I agree that we need loads of peer reviewed research on how trans children may also suffer from sexual trauma, autism, or other issues. We need to try to separate out those who really are gay or “just” uncomfortable with their body.

We also need to see how all these issues correlate to transitioning and detransitioning and investigate if some of the mental health issues may principally relate to other issues than trans identification.

Hopefully, with these new guidelines, this will be possible. My understanding (correct me if I am wrong) is that previously, anyone who dared to even suggest that other issues may be involved was accused of conversion therapy?

It is great that this can be discussed openly, research made and a better understanding of how to support all children can be obtained!