Updated relationships, sex and health curriculum guidance

[umbel]

Updated government guidance, released today!!!

You should work together with parents on any decisions regarding your school’s treatment of their child, in line with the school’s safeguarding policy and the statutory guidance on working together to safeguard children.

What's matter what you believe, or don't believe jj, this means that the child cannot transition at school, socially, sartorially, or linguistically, without informing the parents.

If parents are abusing their children, for whatever reason, then obviously normal safeguarding rules kick in.

Doesn't matter*

Almost as if trans groups agree that being trans has nothing to do with gender stereotypes and welcome government guidelines that mandate children being taught about trans people without all that regressive nonsense.

So what IS trans then?

@persistentwoman

jj1968 You demonstrate a dangerous ignorance of safeguarding.

Only the courts can remove parental rights. Working in partnership with parents is key in safeguarding. It's why schools are often told to inform parents when their child has reported they've hit them before Social Services contact them. Most of us trained and working in safeguarding are experienced in working with angry / abusive parents who at times harm their children.

Safeguarding is detailed, nuanced and based on serious case reviews into deaths and serious harm being done to children and there is nothing on practice or law that states children are supported by keeping secrets from their parents.
Trans groups trying to subvert these principles in order to alienate children from their parents are dangerous.

So you would support a gay child being outed by their teacher to their homophobic and possibly violent parents then?

Schools take things on a case by case basis and they absolutely would not inform a parent of a social services referral if there was any suggestion that might place the child at risk of significant harm.

It's infuriating isn't it rogdmum?
The sad thing is that in order to nail this ignorant arrogance parents would have to expose their child to a court system and few parents have the inclination to do this - let alone the finances.
That's why it's so important the the DfE have clarified the law to schools. Work in partnership with parents and apply safeguarding principles. No exceptions for any groups whatsoever.

Yet again, you are wrong jj1968.

Schools apply safeguarding principles and law. Yes - there are always challenging decisions and many of us who work with parents who are abusive, addicts, racist, homphobic, misogynists and sometimes harm their children. But schools do not make decisions in isolation. We 'work together with other agencies in order to protect a child.
I have often been instructed by social services to phone a parent and inform them that I've made a referral to social services. Horrible phone calls but all part of interagency working.

Yes it's a case by case circumstances and there are some situations where an alleged abusive parent is not contacted in advance but your pronouncements above are wrong.

There's a reason the key safeguarding guidance is called "Working Together".

They didn’t accept section 28 because it was bigoted.

It is hard to argue against guidance telling you not to tell a child that their body or their personality is wrong because they don’t conform to stereotypes without exposing yourself as a massive bigot.

It seems the 180° will be towards the idea that of course it's not about stereotypes, it's about dysphoria as if they haven't been saying that you don't need dysphoria to be trans.

As if not believing in gender bunk (which even Mermaids now reject as such) is in any way comparable to being an abusive parent. That ship has well and truly sailed.

@persistentwoman

Yet again, you are wrong jj1968.

Schools apply safeguarding principles and law. Yes - there are always challenging decisions and many of us who work with parents who are abusive, addicts, racist, homphobic, misogynists and sometimes harm their children. But schools do not make decisions in isolation. We 'work together with other agencies in order to protect a child.
I have often been instructed by social services to phone a parent and inform them that I've made a referral to social services. Horrible phone calls but all part of interagency working.

Yes it's a case by case circumstances and there are some situations where an alleged abusive parent is not contacted in advance but your pronouncements above are wrong.

There's a reason the key safeguarding guidance is called "Working Together".

How am I wrong? I agree, in some circumstances the school would not inform the parents if that was deemed a greater safeguarding risk.

I'll ask again. Would you support outing lesbian and gay children to their parents against the wishes of the child who believes it may place them at risk of harm?

We end up at a point don't we, where trans is just meaningless.
It's everything and nothing.

That's why I still have an issue when we say trans is not xyz, but we don't have a problem with trans people. Well who are they??

I don't have a problem with gender non conforming people (children or adults) and I don't have a problem with adults who choose to cosmetically and medically alter their bodies as they believe it will make them happier.(
And I have sympathy with anyone with any type of body dysphoria.
But who are the trans people??

This guidance seems to be taking a step closer to the reveal that trans is meaningless, but not quite there yet as they are still talking about trans, what it is not, but not what it is!

@rogdmum

In practice I find it hard to believe it could happen anyway, how on earth could such a big change be kept from parents when every child in the school and by extention their familites knows and would no doubt be gossiping about it.

It happens with alarming frequency. It happened to us except my daughter’s Year Head told her unaware brother that his sister was now a boy at school. The Year Head didn’t tell us- our son had to- and then when the Year Head finally bothered to meet with me a month later, he told me we had no say as parents. This was despite a child psychologist saying we should not be affirming but should be doing watchful waiting and our watching our daughter’s mental health deteriorate while the school affirmed her as a boy.

Many many parents like me have been writing to and regularly communicating with MPs about our experiences with schools affirming our children behind our backs. Thankfully they have listened to us.

Well clearly it's not very successful if you found out, and all these other parents found out. That was kind of my point. If schools have been lax about communicating with parents, or parents have been shrugged off, thats another matter, and is a problem in lot of areas of school's interactions with parents.

Would you rather a child disengages from education completely rather than has their gender supported? Where should school draw the line between doing what the parents want and doing what is best for the child's education? Working with parents does not necessarily mean conceding every single point about how the school operates to them. And we are only talking about names and pronouns, schools aren't handing out hormones.

jj1968
Safeguarding isn't a "gotcha" or a game to prove someone else is wrong.

It's all about the context - so for example if your a gay /lesbian child was suicidal and demanding you don't tell their parents - the school (following consultations with relevant professionals) are quite likely to tell the parents. If the parents don't have this information, then how are they able to protect their child from harm if nobody tells them?

That's just one possible scenario - there are countless other possible factors with the child you describe - and that all depends on sharing information and finding out what is relevant - then you make an informed decision - in serious cases, in partnership with other agencies.

The question I ask is why are you so determined that children should be alienated from their parents?

@jj1968

But it is probably even more than 80% who recover. Look at the huge portion of teenage girls experiencing gender angst, as against the absolutely tiny numbers of women who are late transitioners or experience gender confusion later in life.

The debate is relevant, because clearly there is a lot of link to stereotyping in all the materials that have been used out there and because I actually don't think you should tell a teen that their current state of mind on sex or gender is likely to be permanent. For some people it will be akin to having a mental health episode and recovering, so the materials need to be pitched towards support and anti discrimination rather than encouraging children to define themselves definitively with a label that about their "innate essence", which is what you get in the mermaids literature.

This guidance seems to be taking a step closer to the reveal that trans is meaningless, but not quite there yet as they are still talking about trans, what it is not, but not what it is!

I’m hoping this means we are one step closer to stopping viewing children/adolescents with gender distress as “trans” (adults are free to call themselves trans and transition as they feel fit) and instead changing the lens to a clinical one, viewing the complexity with which these children understand themselves and the various factors playing into their feelings. For far too long we’ve been told to accept the simple label of “trans” when actually there are highly complex factors and we need a better understanding of underlying causes/manifestations etc.

I attended a seminar at the Scottish Parliament just before lockdown and at it Dr David Bell said:

“A large number of these children have multiple serious problems (experienced clinicians have described them as the most disturbed and complex group of children they have ever worked with) and where thought and enquiry are drowned out by the highly politicised agendas ,these problems may never be addressed, a very damaging outcome.”

He also said that the affirmative agenda is a cause of serious damage.

Hopefully between the DoE guidelines yesterday and the Cass review announced earlier in the week, this is the beginning of a shift in thought.

@rogdmum

This guidance seems to be taking a step closer to the reveal that trans is meaningless, but not quite there yet as they are still talking about trans, what it is not, but not what it is!

I’m hoping this means we are one step closer to stopping viewing children/adolescents with gender distress as “trans” (adults are free to call themselves trans and transition as they feel fit) and instead changing the lens to a clinical one, viewing the complexity with which these children understand themselves and the various factors playing into their feelings. For far too long we’ve been told to accept the simple label of “trans” when actually there are highly complex factors and we need a better understanding of underlying causes/manifestations etc.

I attended a seminar at the Scottish Parliament just before lockdown and at it Dr David Bell said:

“A large number of these children have multiple serious problems (experienced clinicians have described them as the most disturbed and complex group of children they have ever worked with) and where thought and enquiry are drowned out by the highly politicised agendas ,these problems may never be addressed, a very damaging outcome.”

He also said that the affirmative agenda is a cause of serious damage.

Hopefully between the DoE guidelines yesterday and the Cass review announced earlier in the week, this is the beginning of a shift in thought.

Such an important post rogdmum. Children's needs can be so complex and hopefully this will start the removal of the 'trans trumps all" approach and lead to a solely child centred approach.

And we are only talking about names and pronouns, schools aren't handing out hormones.

There were cases I believe where teachers were keeping information from parents and yet going so far as referrals to Mermaids. Given that Mermaids would have been a route to gender affirmation without parents able to offer either support or questioning meant that everything was going in a direction that took away any safeguarding.

I agree that outing a gay or lesbian child is not acceptable even to parents, but any child in that position should be encouraged and helped to discuss with parents. A trans child is a much more complex matter and for me, all avenues should be explored, as the end result for a young trans person would be surgery and/or medication. Avoid at all costs, the use of either on a healthy body

Sorry, a late post

@persistentwoman

jj1968 Safeguarding isn't a "gotcha" or a game to prove someone else is wrong.

It's all about the context - so for example if your a gay /lesbian child was suicidal and demanding you don't tell their parents - the school (following consultations with relevant professionals) are quite likely to tell the parents. If the parents don't have this information, then how are they able to protect their child from harm if nobody tells them?

That's just one possible scenario - there are countless other possible factors with the child you describe - and that all depends on sharing information and finding out what is relevant - then you make an informed decision - in serious cases, in partnership with other agencies.

The question I ask is why are you so determined that children should be alienated from their parents?

I didn't say a suicidal child, I said a gay or lesbian child. Do you think schools should routinely out children who tell a teacher they think they might be gay to their parents against the wishes of the child?

The question I ask is why are you so determined that children should be alienated from their parents?

I never talked to anyone about my gender dysphoria as a child, I was far too terrified of anyone finding out. I find it chilling that some people seem to want to go back to those times. But one thing I am certain of, there is absolutely no way at all I would ever have opened up to a teacher about it if I knew my parents would be immediately informed. Some kids have transphobic or homophobic parents unfortunately. And that is what alienates their children from them, not schools.

One final response to you. The point you miss is that a distressed child may (or may not) have a multiplicity of issues - sexuality being one of them. No school has a rule that says 'tell parents this, don't tell parents that. Confidentiality depends on so many factors - the safety and welfare of the child being paramount. Maybe get yourself on a basic safeguarding course so that you can better understand the issues in relation to children?

People with strong feelings about their childhood experiences are often not best placed to write laws or best practice for all children. And that's why the lobby groups have been given the boot from schools. Because their advice has been contrary to safeguarding and pastoral care practice.

jj1968

Instead of trying to distil everything down into a black and white, 'there you have it, you're wrong, because of my own personal experience', why don't you challenge proponents of an ideology that absolutely has told boys and girls that they are the opposite sex because of gender stereotyping.

Children who then subsequently find out online that they need to bind their breasts, take hormones and puberty blockers, and blackmail parents with threats of suicide.

This is why the DofE have categorically said that information needs to be shared with parents. This pushing of an ideology that is detrimental to children.

Another aspect is, for instance, the Tavistock's personal fears that children were being transed because they were gay.

One particularly grim worry was a man who wanted his child puberty blocked, to keep them sexually available as a child.

Of course there will be children for whom transitioning is a reaction to what is going on at home, and liaising with parents will have to take a completely different tack to just telling them to keep the kids off the Internet and stop buying them breast binders.

There are children who want to transition because they are gay and subject to homophobia, or because they have suffered from trauma, often sexual, and want to identify out of their sex to avoid it, and those who are autistic and feel they don't belong anywhere for whom trans seems like an answer.

The way to deal with this is to lift the lid off the secrecy, not perpetuate it.

jj1968 - that's not how school safeguarding works (I'm a teacher).

If a child discloses anything to me which suggests they may be at risk (for example, they are gay & pretty sure they can't tell their parents because they'll go nuts), then I don't make any sort of decision as to what action, if any, school should be taking. I sure as hell don't go charging off to phone their parents! I'd be in deep shit if I did, & quite rightly.

I pass the information on to the trained Safeguarding Lead. They deal with it. They may have several other pieces of relevant info on the child from a variety of sources (maybe a PE teacher has noticed that the child has finger bruises on their arms, maybe their best mate has received late night texts about self harm from them & told their form tutor, maybe their Head of Year has had to deal with the child being subjected to homophobic bullying from classmates - all of these people should have also reported to the SL).

The SL makes the decisions about who to contact/what to do.

& no one, at any stage, can or should promise the child confidentiality. Because secret-keeping is what abusers do. So you teach children that anyone, however well intentioned, who agrees or suggests that they should keep stuff 'secret', is not to be trusted. Secrets between a child & an adult should not happen.

Let's say that a young person identifies at school as gay but their parents are homophobic (or believed to be).

Is it likely the school would automatically contact the parents to say "your child is identifying as gay now?" What exactly is different about how the gay child is treated in school than they were previously? Are they being referred to medical services, or to a support/lobbying group that is known to promote medical treatment (????what would that medical treatment be anyway???)

Is the gay student being encouraged or allowed to act in ways that may trespass on the rights and safety of other students?

I get what you're saying. Sadly, a minority of parents are not safe for their own children and that is why various individuals and groups involved in safeguarding may have to make decisions that the parents disagree with.

But I think you're arguing a false equivalence here. Identifying as gay actually isn't a very close parallel to identifying as trans.

Explain to me how they are the same in day to day effects on the children and families, please.

The problem with trying to shoe-horn gay as the comparator, is that being gay doesn't require any changes to the child's school environment or their physiology. Being trans does. They're hardly comparable.

@CorvusPurpureus

jj1968 - that's not how school safeguarding works (I'm a teacher).

If a child discloses anything to me which suggests they may be at risk (for example, they are gay & pretty sure they can't tell their parents because they'll go nuts), then I don't make any sort of decision as to what action, if any, school should be taking. I sure as hell don't go charging off to phone their parents! I'd be in deep shit if I did, & quite rightly.

I pass the information on to the trained Safeguarding Lead. They deal with it. They may have several other pieces of relevant info on the child from a variety of sources (maybe a PE teacher has noticed that the child has finger bruises on their arms, maybe their best mate has received late night texts about self harm from them & told their form tutor, maybe their Head of Year has had to deal with the child being subjected to homophobic bullying from classmates - all of these people should have also reported to the SL).

The SL makes the decisions about who to contact/what to do.

& no one, at any stage, can or should promise the child confidentiality. Because secret-keeping is what abusers do. So you teach children that anyone, however well intentioned, who agrees or suggests that they should keep stuff 'secret', is not to be trusted. Secrets between a child & an adult should not happen.

@CorvusPurpureus So I'm curious, I assume if a child tells a teacher they are gay you wouldn't automatically assume that was a safeguarding matter that needs to be reported to the safeguarding lead, so why shouldn't the same apply to a child who says they think they might be trans. If a child expresses a desire to socially transition then that is another matter, but I fail to see how a child questioning their gender should automatically be viewed as a safeguarding risk or their parents informed by anyone.

Obviously schools cannot promise complete confidentiality, and the threshold for schools is higher than some external specialists like the NSPCC, The Samaritans, and some LGBT organisations for young people. It is different still when it comes to healthcare.

Schools should therefore not promise absolute confidentiality, information must always be shared with relevent other staff and agencies in the event of a safeguarding risk, but thinking you might be rans is no more a safeguarding risk then thinking you might be gay so I don;t see why it would be appropriate to flag this up as a potential risk.