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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Liz Truss WILL make a statement today

273 replies

TheFleegleHasLanded · 22/09/2020 09:22

commonsbusiness.parliament.uk/document/40760/html

Or someone will on her behalf.

My MP said GRA statement coming today.

Liz Truss WILL make a statement today
OP posts:
Thread gallery
8
Gottalife · 22/09/2020 11:28

“It is my view that the balance struck in the existing legislation is correct. There are proportionate checks and balances in the system, alongside support for people that want to change their legal sex."

Perhaps the black t-shirt slogan mis-gendering cult will shut up now?

ThinEndoftheWedge · 22/09/2020 11:30

able to use facilities of their chosen gender;

Yes - single sex spaces mentioned but I can’t celebrate with this included. Mishmash of confusion.

TinselAngel · 22/09/2020 11:30

@KatVonlabonk

To me that reads like a spouse has to consent to continue in what would be a same sex marriage. That seems fair enough.

The frothing madness about it has started over on twitter.

Which is the current position.
Mammatino · 22/09/2020 11:32

Yep Floral. It’s a good day, the war isn’t won but this is a huge step forward. This couldn’t have happened six months ago, anyone even possibly hinting they didn’t agree was dropped like a hot coal and annihilated in the media. Keep going Mumsnet you are in the right. I don’t want any trans person hurt, I want them supported and part of my life and society in good health and happiness...just not at the expense of women and children.

FloralBunting · 22/09/2020 11:36

@Kit19

Oh yes I think we should prepare for incoming Kat. The monitors will be out in force
You're not wrong. And if they think I shall be spending a beautiful equinox arguing online with petulant children instead of celebrating the success of a grassroots campaign of ordinary, brave women, they are so going to be disappointed.

Rage on, kiddos. You are wasting your time, and I don't waste mine. I spend it on successful feminist campaigning and celebrating the wins.😘

TalkingtoLangClegintheDark · 22/09/2020 11:36

I think there have just been so many leaks about self ID in law being kicked into the long grass that I kind of took that bit for granted, and hoped it signalled a wider move away from the culture of self ID in practice.

That’s my disappointment.

But of course you’re all right, and the fact self ID hasn’t been passed into law is something to celebrate.

(Being an Eeyore, however, is destiny, so I will go and sit in a corner with testing987654321 and worry about everything while the rest of you whoop it up Grin Grin)

KatVonlabonk · 22/09/2020 11:36

Strange that tinsel it's almost as if partners in a marriage have rights too.

Well done on your part in this fight. ✊

Ereshkigalangcleg · 22/09/2020 11:39

I know I’m being very dour about this. I just hoped for far more from Truss. Not that I ever thought GRA repeal was on the table at this stage; but this parroting of TRA ideology and presenting it as grounded in reason/fact/justice is deeply disturbing from a government which I thought was going to distance itself much more from all that.

You and I both know that however uncontroversial her statement, and however Pink News try to spin it that they're just pleased there will be no genital inspections as the Times said did it fuck the TRAs were expecting to win everything they demanded. They haven't. There is going to be a huge fallout. This wasn't about the Equality Act which is where our sex based rights are laid out in law. She did however state that single sex spaces could be restricted on the basis of biological sex. Which is more than any other politician has done. They've hidden in the obfuscation of "gender".

We definitely have much more work to do, and it's going to take time.

fatblackcatspaw · 22/09/2020 11:40

@Collidascope

I'm not thrilled with this, tbh. The institutional capture has already happened and if anything Truss backs that up when she praises how trans people have widely been "able to use facilities of their chosen gender." Since when have facilities been "gendered"?

Admittedly there's mention of single-sex provision, but no acknowledgement that this has already been throw out by a load of organisations.

agreed and its not clear that safeguards are in place... and will these gender clinics just wave them through? and will you be able to hide a crimminal past using the GRA?
Escapeplanning · 22/09/2020 11:44

@Gottalife

“It is my view that the balance struck in the existing legislation is correct. There are proportionate checks and balances in the system, alongside support for people that want to change their legal sex."

Perhaps the black t-shirt slogan mis-gendering cult will shut up now?

Are you here on a feminist board telling feminists to shut up?

Vile.

yourhairiswinterfire · 22/09/2020 11:45

@ThinEndoftheWedge

able to use facilities of their chosen gender;

Yes - single sex spaces mentioned but I can’t celebrate with this included. Mishmash of confusion.

It's frustrating. Gender and sex are NOTHING alike, it needs to be made clearer.

And we know that we're entitled to single sex services, but how many establishments give a shit? They'll do anything not to enforce it, they're too bloated from the KoolAid.

Also, unless we get trans people to produce their GRC at the toilet doors (which I absolutely wouldn't agree with), we still have no idea who is genuine or who isn't, so our spaces aren't safer yet.

It's all still a massive mess.

persistentwoman · 22/09/2020 11:49

This was always going to be small steps and this is one of them. I'm pleased that restricting access to single sex spaces on the basis of biological sex was specified.
Well done to women everywhere for standing up to this. Yes - the battle is not over but it's a significant victory. Flowers

OhHolyJesus · 22/09/2020 11:52

I just want to say thank you. If it wasn't for this board and the women talking about this and fighting to keep the law as it is, I wouldn't have known. I wouldn't have had a clue. No one was talking about this two years ago, not the mainstream media, not publicly, no one.

It's taken 2 years but we know now nothing changes in law, at least for now. Sure the process is cheaper and easier online, and there is some ambiguity in the language but essentially nothing changes. It's a holding position and it's just the beginning.

Onwards x

MichelleofzeResistance · 22/09/2020 11:53

Nice to see on the Twitter threads re spousal exit, repeated explanations appearing to the confused that it is asking of consent to stay in the partnership and not asking consent for a GRA.

Much attempts to paint this as a spouse then able to control the terms of the divorce with no awareness whatsoever that without that exit clause that is precisely what the transitioning spouse would be able to do too. No mentions either that an interim certificate is granted. But very nice to see the rebuttal appearing freely and frequently from multiple sources, that particular obfuscation is now in plain sunlight.

mindfulnessfail · 22/09/2020 11:53

[quote TinselAngel]Looks like spousal exit clause retained, which is good news for trans widows.

twitter.com/geogovuk/status/1308337614500569093?s=21[/quote]
Great news for you Tinsel. Wine

TinselAngel · 22/09/2020 11:54

@KatVonlabonk

Strange that tinsel it's almost as if partners in a marriage have rights too.

Well done on your part in this fight. ✊

😘
ahagwearsapointybonnet · 22/09/2020 11:56

Just flipping through a few pages of the report on the consultation responses. Couple of things that jump out so far - lot of very unquestioning talk about "non-binary" from the report writers - despite the fact this has no legal meaning at all AFAIK (I don't remember whether/how this was specifically asked about in the consultation - it seems like years ago! - but maybe someone else does?)
Also the very biased rewording of the questions in the form provided by the supposedly "feminist organisation" Level Up Hmm

(I'm not promising to read the whole thing or do any more detailed analysis, sorry - I need to be doing something else really but was curious!).

ArabellaScott · 22/09/2020 12:01

Well done to everyone who has worked so hard.

It's a start. The brakes going on. Now we continue to bring sunlight and publicity to every aspect of gender ideology.

The thing is, in the long run this will benefit everyone. More healthcare for those suffering dysphoria should be good news - more support, more counselling, more questioning. We know that transitioning often doesn't solve the problem. We know that children & young people who are struggling with various issues need more than a rainbow sticking plaster. More research, more safeguarding, more debate.

And we will be able to clearly see what rights and protections women need, what single sex spaces are needed. We can work to get those protected, get the law crystal clear and very firm.

Onwards, everyone.

WeeBisom · 22/09/2020 12:07

This is a massive turnaround. I remember in 2016 self ID was being treated as inevitable - there wasn’t even going to be a consultation on it. I know people are disappointed in the government’s tone, and wanted more, but we got everything we wanted. Self ID is gone. There isn’t even a compromise position (like self ID for over 21s only). It’s just been scrapped. The government has doubled down on the GRC process which is entirely premised on the medical model of transness - you must have gender dysphoria, must be treated by doctors , must be “trapped in the wrong body”. This, of course, has not been mainstream trans activist thinking for many years - trans has nothing to do with dysphoria now. But they didn’t actively and openly campaign on this basis because they know it’s a very hard sell (hence “no debate.”)

Trans rights activists will be forced to start again from scratch. They will have to openly ditch the medical model and start explaining what they really want - which is a world where a male can say he is a woman because he feels like it. They are going to have to explain to a confused public that males who don’t have dysphoria , who don’t want surgery or hormones , who actually don’t want to even change their appearance, are nevertheless women. The public by and large have the view that trans women are like Hayley from coronation street, and associate it with a horrible distressing medical condition that needs treatment. The public will now have to be convinced of a postmodernist queer theory perspective which doesn’t really make much sense outside a gender studies seminar.

I’m just reflecting on how hopeless everything seemed a couple of years ago. This u turn was unthinkable back then. I also want to see further reforms and more protection for women. But I think we need to recognise as well just how far we have come.

LonnyVonnyWilsonFrickett · 22/09/2020 12:07

It's not the end of the war, no.

But if self-ID had been brought in that would have been the end of the war and women would have lost. Without self-ID everything else is possible.

So thank you women of MN, especially those brave enough to have fought for this under your own names.

2020wumben · 22/09/2020 12:08

@NonnyMouse1337

This is good news! Self-id is officially dead! The mechanisms to obtain a GRC are still in place but moving the procedure online and reducing the costs is a reasonable compromise. At least single-sex exemptions have been mentioned.

There's still a lot to do - ensuring all those organisations and businesses that jumped on self-id bandwagon are made to comply with the law or face court.... Ensuring single-sex exemptions are enforced and not treated like a casual choice..... Three new clinics - need to make sure teenagers are not driven down a medical pathway. Hopefully the upcoming court cases will help in this.
Also Scotland and NI still on the brink of disaster.

BUT we can all take this moment to realise how far we've come and what we've achieved. So many women have worked so hard and risked so much to build awareness and opposition to this. Thank you all from the bottom of my heart. Flowers

Could I ask a bit more about the impact on NI. My understanding was that NI followed the GRA but its implementation was down to NI so that unless self-ID was brought into the NI legislation (can't see that being a priority at this stage) then we would follow the GRA so it would be a no to self id. I'm just trying to figure out if I need to start writing to MLAs
BlueBrush · 22/09/2020 12:09

@Mammatino

Yep Floral. It’s a good day, the war isn’t won but this is a huge step forward. This couldn’t have happened six months ago, anyone even possibly hinting they didn’t agree was dropped like a hot coal and annihilated in the media. Keep going Mumsnet you are in the right. I don’t want any trans person hurt, I want them supported and part of my life and society in good health and happiness...just not at the expense of women and children.
Totally agree @Mammatino. (And here here @FloralBunting!) I'm going to take this as a solid step forward, and one that is definitely worth celebrating. Much to do still, but this will help me muster the energy to keep pushing forwards. Well done and thank you to the marvellous women on this board.
Kit19 · 22/09/2020 12:10

Nancy’s not happy

twitter.com/nancy_m_k/status/1308350782895513601?s=21

The reason fir the toxicity is entirely down to stonewall screaming nodebate, patronising women, hand waving away any questions & refusing to condemn the appalling threats made to women by TRA

Sexnotgender · 22/09/2020 12:15

A small but significant battle won. Well done to all who made it happen.

katiegoestoaldi · 22/09/2020 12:15

That was...anticlimactic