The NHS is run by misogynists, say women forced to give birth alone

[MillyMollyFarmer]

Tory MP Alicia Kearns has been running a campaign to make all NHS trusts change the policies around women giving birth and for pregnancy check ups during Covid. It’s horrific but I didn’t realise it was still ongoing now. This includes women who have lost their babies and have to proceed with the process alone as partners wait outside. I’m so utterly horrified at the inhumane way they are dealing with this. It’s unnecessary. Apparently Boris has backed calls but some trusts are just ignoring women’s requests. I find this so upsetting.

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8751493/How-one-pregnant-MP-fighting-stop-trauma-lone-births-caused-Covid-rules.html

This thread is a good example of a worthy topic easily derailed through bad framing. Yes, women who are pregnant/giving birth, are having a very difficult time due to Covid restrictions, and it’s well worth making a lot of noise about this so things can be improved. Lay it out like that and everyone can have a nice constructive discussion about the problems at hand. However, what it isn’t is misogyny. You can’t make that claim when NHS Covid restrictions are having such devastating effects across the board, for people who have had a cancer diagnosis, who are receiving cancer treatment, for people with other life threatening conditions who’s quality of life and care has been severely impacted, for those experiencing poor end of life care and their loved ones, for those forced to die alone and the families who’ve been unable to say goodbye to them. Saying that it is just seems tone-deaf and amazingly insensitive.
So sure, let’s discuss how bad it is for pregnant and birthing women at the moment, because it is bad, and it needs to be talked about as an issue in its own right, but it can’t be singled out as exceptionally bad due to some other factor than Covid because it’s just not true and it just creates argument, as it has done here.
OP, your intentions are noble, I can see that, but a slightly different start to the thread could have made this a far more interesting discussion.

You can’t make that claim when NHS Covid restrictions are having such devastating effects across the board

The issue is some trusts are not following the guidelines which actually do allow a birth partner there. Why would they ignore the actual guidelines do you think? If it’s not misogyny.

@Vermeil to be fair the OP hasn't declared it misogyny, just quoted the content of the article she has linked and tried to maintain comparable debate around proven medical outcomes rather than the empathy of 'being alone' at a difficult time whereby the presence of a partner improves the experience but not the medical outcome. (Although a little blunt at times)

@movingonup20 it is correct that some trusts are still not allowing birth partners despite the guidelines changing to say they can. Hence why the MP is taking it to parliament on Wednesday. It's really good that your friends didn't face this as an issue.

I have had 5 friends give birth since March, all have been allowed partners with them including the one with a c-section. Not sure where you are getting your information from but it's not correct

It appears you haven’t read the full thread, the article I posted, or the link someone else posted to the doula organisations campaign. If you had of done that, you’d realise the issue is some trusts aren’t following the existing guidance which allows a birthing partner. That’s what the campaign is about. It isn’t my campaign.

I do think there is ample evidence the NHS and most Heath care is misogynistic. They had to recently advise HCP’s to ‘listen to women’ in a report about endometriosis, as an example, in order to cut down the unacceptable wait time for referrals ( 11 years ). Despite the guidance allowing birthing partners, could be a partner or a doula, some trusts are ignoring that. I do ask why that is, and some women affected thinks it’s misogyny in healthcare. My experience with the NHS would probably lead me to that conclusion too.

Personally I feel we need a new word alongside misogyny. Taking it at its base definition its a hatred for women. So you would say that these particular trusts are led by people who hate women and thus refuse to improve experiences or outcomes for women specific services as a result of that hatred.

But I think, and I've been thinking this on the feminism boards too - we need a new word that describes situations where women specific needs are secondary. Different than discrimination. A reduction in services or availability of appropriate care (in this instance) because of prior institutionalised, systematic and inherent misogyny that still lingers but isn't the direct reason. People don't realise they hold misogynistic views, or write misogynistic policies because the definition is so tightly wound to being 'women haters'. (Eg Well I managed giving birth in my own so why can't every other woman? It's not that difficult?!)

We need something else more modern that tackles the broader spectrum of continued (and at times deliberate) shrinking boundaries of women's rights in today's day and age. And I think this word would better describe this situation than direct misogyny.

I think i should start this as a new discussion thread.

I'm off this week so will be watching PMs Q's on Wednesday and see if this comes up.

We don't need a new word, we have plenty already - discrimination, sexism, patriarchy. The fact that women's healthcare is substandard compared to men's healthcare is discrimination, it's sexist and it's a symptom of the patriarchy.

Misogyny is a strong word and is probably making people defensive. It does exist though. At some point the casual contempt for women does go from discrimination to misogyny; it's a fine line.

I would argue that HCPs who are indifferent to women's pain and suffering probably are misogynists, they are probably (hopefully) in the minority though.

@longcoffee

I don't know what the situation was previously with regards to giving birth to a baby who has passed, however I can confidently say that partners are allowed with you now.

I am having a termination at 22 weeks tomorrow, due to my baby girl having severe heart issues that mean she is 'incompatible with life'.

My husband will be with me for the process tomorrow, and, when I'm admitted back to hospital on Wednesday to be induced, we will both be in a suite together, and he'll be with me when I'm moved to delivery too.

I was able to deliver in London, Kent or Sussex. Of the four NHS hospitals I was offered, all have the same provision with regards to partners.

I am hugely grateful that he can be by my side and have a chance to meet our daughter.

I'm petrified, but knowing he'll be there helps a bit. I had to hear the initial news on my own at a scan in our Kent hospital, but he has been there for the subsequent diagnosis and tests, all carried out in London. Throughout this process, we have been assured by various midwives and consultants that the situation is changing, and every fight is being fought to allow partners to be present at every stage

I’m not sure what to say, but I do hope everything goes as well as it can and you both get to meet your daughter and say goodbye to her. I’ll be thinking of you all x

The thing is, once again, it's guidance not law. Each trust has to risk assess for itself, in fact each department has to risk assess for itself, in many cases each room has to be risk assessed. Lots of things impact on the decisions being made from the size of rooms to the availability of staff and a world of other things.

What would be interesting would be to ask for the risk assessments the trust who are not allowing partners have done.
We have had to enter the internal dimensions of rooms, where chairs/beds can be relative to equipment, what happens if there is an emergency and more people need to be in a room. A vast amount of information has to be assessed to make these decisions.

You may not be wrong, it may be that some trusts have short cut and just gone "birth partners are not essential" in which case it definitely needs calling out but I think assuming that is the case without checking available facts is dangerous.

We need something else more modern that tackles the broader spectrum of continued (and at times deliberate) shrinking boundaries of women's rights in today's day and age. And I think this word would better describe this situation than direct misogyny.

Yeah I think I agree, good points you’ve made and I’d be interested in a discussion on that.

If you read the article I posted Buffering you’ll see MPs have written to individual trusts and what some of the answers are. I’d love it if people could read that and then they can stop saying I’ve assumed anything. It isn’t my campaign!! Some of these trusts have incorrectly stated the reasoning to be the official guidelines, when in fact the guidelines say the opposite.

@MillyMollyFarmer

I do think there is ample evidence the NHS and most Heath care is misogynistic. They had to recently advise HCP’s to ‘listen to women’ in a report about endometriosis, as an example, in order to cut down the unacceptable wait time for referrals ( 11 years ). Despite the guidance allowing birthing partners, could be a partner or a doula, some trusts are ignoring that. I do ask why that is, and some women affected thinks it’s misogyny in healthcare. My experience with the NHS would probably lead me to that conclusion too.

My experience of health care specific to women is the opposite. I had problems with periods and was referred to a gynaecologist after my second GP visit, and got the appointment within 6 weeks. From that appointment, I had a scan 2 weeks later, then a follow up appointment 2 weeks after that where I had some treatment.

I have had a quick referral for abdominal pain where I was investigated for ovarian cysts, again treated very quickly. Actually, the only time I feel I wasn’t listened to during my many contacts with medical professionals was when I was in labour with my first child, and the female doctor who came to stitch me up told me I was being soft and couldn’t have gas and air whilst she was doing it!

My dd has just had a child - she did all the ante natal appointments herself from March onwards and didn’t mind one iota. She was prepared mentally for maybe having to give birth without her partner - NOT alone as there is always at least 1 midwife present - and accepted that may be necessary. In the end she had a home birth.

Making blanket assumptions on women’s experiences at the hands of male medics is not helpful at all, because so many women don’t have those experiences. And yes, I know how awful it is to be given bad news at an appointment - I was told my 12 week old pregnancy was no longer viable when I went for a scan many years ago. I was alone and it was awful. I went in for surgery the following day - again alone because that was what happened then. Sure, I’d have preferred not to have been without my partner, but it wasn’t that part that traumatised me, it was the actual event. Both times I’ve given birth, I couldn’t have cared less if my partner was with me or not in the throes of labour.

To say that it’s misogynistic implies that women working within the profession have no say in decisions that are made. The women I know who work in the profession are far from misogynistic and are very much advocates of women.

@AnotherEmma the issue I have with the other words you mention is that they describe oppression to non-women also and are not specific enough.

The only word that describes specific oppressive actions against women is misogyny and yes, at times so feel its use is too aggressive, too tightly wound, to make progress. It's like giving fuck you the finger in the second sentence of a debate.

Especially when some of the people with misogynistic views, are women. They can't see the lifelong inherent predetermination that's occurred in their thought development. Or where they do see it but compete in survival of the fittest. ( I gave birth with no pain relief so you can too) It's like opening your eyes to see that what you thought was ok, really isn't ok. It's often the first step to feminism and liberation. Sorry I'm rambling.

This here is a really good example - that it's not ok and should be dealt with - regardless of the logistical risk assessments.

This is not OK. No excuses.

I do think someone should be with a birthing mother. It maybe can be possible to birth alone when all goes and ends well but we don't know that in advance. I had an early stillbirth last year and holding a dead baby while being flooded with all these bonding hormones making me want to care for her resulted in me very, very seriously wanting to hang myself. DH had to watch me like a hawk and feed me till they got me to a psychologist. I wouldn't have survived alone in a hospital, I would've jumped.

This is an interesting discussion as I wondered where the blame really is in regards to women not having support during labour, birth and beyond.

I gave birth at start of Lockdown to a premature baby. Even though I was in premature labour with a history of losing our previous premature baby, I was not allowed my husband there with me due to not being the magic 4cm. I was alone in a side assessment room, barely big enough for the bed watching my baby's heartbeat declining on the monitor. I had no labour bag with me as I wasnt able to carry them up due to having contractions every 2-3 minutes, I was barely able to get myself into the hospital. Our son ended up being born by EMCS, even as I was signing the consent forms and being prepped I was not allowed my husband by my side. I kept asking my MWs, they kept denying him entry. It wasnt until I was about to wheeled to theatre that the Dr asked where my husband was! He said he was know allowed to come in, my husband just about made it. But I know many women whose husbands didnt.

Post csection, my husband was allowed to stay with me to briefly visit our son in NICU but then he was told to go very sternly by a MW who wouldnt even let him collect his things - I had to carry his bags, less than 24 hours post surgery, to him at the door. I had to stay, recovering from a csection and fearing for my baby's survival alone. I have severe MH issues already but my EMCS went wrong, the spinal block wore off half way through, so I kept having flashbacks. I remained alone in NICU on the parent bay, I ended up having to be readmitted to the postnatal ward as I had done myself damage from not being able to care for myself. Meanwhile, my husband was not able to see our son again, after that brief first visit, for 4 weeks.

My MH is ruined and a lot of it I do blame on Covid. The day before I gave birth, a Dr sent me home because he said it was best for me not to be taking up a bed during Covid even though I had concerns regarding my babys movement and contractions were being picked up on the monitor. Did my spinal block wear off because everyone was stressing out more about me spiking a temp than correctly administering the block? Was my recovery harder because I had to do it alone, there were no MWs to help with my care nor was there adequate food provided - often I had to go a whole day with nothing but toast to eat.

Sorry for such a long one! Just I feel Covid restrictions have really damaged my physical and mental health.

I do appreciate I am lucky that my baby survived though. I have 2 friends who recently had to go through baby loss alone due to covid. One had an ectopic pregnancy and another a stillbirth at 23 weeks, neither were allowed their partners with them through the whole process from finding out to being discharged home.

Making blanket assumptions on women’s experiences at the hands of male medics is not helpful at all, because so many women don’t have those experiences

I’m not making ‘blanket assumptions’ about anything. I literally just quoted a government report on endometriosis having to tell HCP’s that they must listen to women because they concluded that wasn’t happening already, hence the long wait times. Women in the article and writing to this MP have also told their stories about maternity care. There’s been plenty of threads here over the years about women’s health care with many women sharing their stories of poor treatment, during smears, pregnancy, birth, when experiencing pain, when accessing terminations... the list goes on. I’m not assuming a damn thing. I’m so glad you had a great experience. Many other women haven’t and it’s not cool to base everything on your own experience while telling others they’re assuming things or being too hard on the poor men just because you got treated well. It’s very dismissive and not very feminist at all.

rorosemary I am so very sorry I hope you’re ok now and I am glad you had a partner with you. I understand your feelings and I hope you’ve had plenty of support since.

Yukka
"the issue I have with the other words you mention is that they describe oppression to non-women"
Eh?
Sexism is discrimination and prejudice against women.
Patriarchy is a society/culture which favours men over women.

@longcoffee I'm sorry

rorosemary
I am very sorry for your loss

BimbleTea
Sorry about your experience, it was not ok

Actually, the only time I feel I wasn’t listened to during my many contacts with medical professionals was when I was in labour with my first child, and the female doctor who came to stitch me up told me I was being soft and couldn’t have gas and air whilst she was doing it!

Hmmm ...so how likely is it that she would have said the same if a man asked for pain relief whilst she was stitching his penis?

Could be fear of the patriarchy. Could be misogyny. Did she even realise how wrong she was to say that to you. This is what I mean - inherent, delayed, taught, oppression of women's needs.

BimbleTea

Thank you for sharing your story and please don’t apologise for the length of it. I am so sorry you had such an awful experience and I don’t think it’s ok that all that happened. I just don’t think it was necessary. I find a lot of what you’ve written to be dehumanising. This hasn’t been handled well at all and I will continue to say I think the government has done badly with respect to making sure other health concerns are properly addressed despite this virus being present.

@AnotherEmma

Yukka "the issue I have with the other words you mention is that they describe oppression to non-women" Eh? Sexism is discrimination and prejudice against women. Patriarchy is a society/culture which favours men over women.

I mean that discrimination has several protected characteristics of which only one is sex/sexism (and currently being debated)

Patriarchy actually centres the most powerful male over other males, women and children. Though I agree usually used as term against women only.

Hence my viewpoint I guess. Even the word misogyny focuses on "them the woman hater"

What word centres women and promotes and protects our needs. I genuinely can't think of one.

Back in June I had to attend my scan alone whilst my husband was in the car park outside the hospital.

I was told we had lost the baby alone and then had to break it to him in the car. Two weeks later I had a procedure to remove the tissue ... again alone. No husband there holding my hand as I woke up. It is inhumane. For him as well as me.

Before the procedure we both had to undergo two weeks quarantine so that I could be admitted. He had to forgo two weeks pay and was as virus free as I. So why couldn’t he be in the room with me? There is no arguable reason I can see.

I find it horrifying to read that women are enduring births and even worse still-births without their partner by their side. It is a time when the woman needs support and the partner feels so helpless and grief struck that they too need to be involved and by their partners side. What good is it to anyone that these husbands and partners are pacing in the car park!?

Covid is no argument as the partner would be wearing a mask and in the case of a procedure they have to go through the 14 day quarantine anyway as they share a home.

It beggars belief ... and I know I’m not arguing my point well as I’m too emotionally involved in this subject.

@BimbleTea I am so very sorry and sad to read your story. God bless you.