Janice Turner on safeguarding manages to name everyone succinctly in one column

[NotBadConsidering]

Cuties, Exist Loudly, Stonewall, NSPCC, Bergdorf, Tatchell, MAP...

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/8c46aad6-f461-11ea-9de6-a6e4d4016fb7?shareToken=e196d311d52618102baf33fd9f6a2fbd

This is why she wins writing awards. Gets so much across in a short space (waves to Janice! 👋)

@MillyMollyFarmer

Maybe we need to start seeking out examples of films and TV shows with 'good' sex scenes - consensual, fun, no gratuitous nudity

I love that idea. Perhaps someone would start a thread and we could add films we see.

And include older people.

The glibly applied term 'sex positive' needs to have some simple algebra applied to it. If we make a reasonable definition of 'positive sex' as good sex between fully consenting adults, and unhappy, abusive and/or non consensual sex as negative then:

Positive about positive sex = positive
Negative about positive sex = generally negative, repressive.
Positive about negative sex = negative .
Negative about negative sex = positive - anti child sex abuse, rape etc.

@BovaryX

I previously had supported the Telegraph but cancelled recently as there seemed to be a change on how they discussed women's issues

Agreed. It's dire. Apparently it is up for sale. Its website is awful and its content is increasingly woeful. There is a market for right of centre/freedom of speech media with a diversity of views and coherent, intelligent discourse. I think that's why The Spectator is doing well. I think The Times is benefiting from an exodus of Guardian and Telegraph readers.

I read it a bit online when you were allowed to without the paywall and I was impressed with their content for the professional working woman. However, recently when their paywall was down following the XR action, it was rather disappointing.

I think that most people, even if they like a bit of comfort reading around their own world view, want good writing and good analysis of what is going on around them.

I occasionally read the Telegraph but do think it's coverage of women is poor. I did subscribe to The Times online but unsubscribing was a nightmare and that has put me off subscribing to anything where you can't just tick a box online to unsubscribe. Unsubscribing should be as easy as subscribing to encourage people to do it. The Telegraph had a confusing array of subscriptions. I previously subscribed to The Economist and unsubscribing from that was easy. It started to feel like Remainer brainwashing though, I like more of a variety of opinions hence my Speccy subscription remains.

DH does like his newspaper. About a year ago I said I would not have the Telegraph in the house and we swapped to the Times.

@thinkingaboutLangCleg

Does she usually write for The Times?

Yes, causing a moral dilemma for all who don’t wish to support the scummy Murdoch press! What can we do? The Guardian has turned against women, it’s all about identity politics now. The Morning Star is the only leftwing paper I can buy that hasn’t been captured. So most of the rational journalists are published in the rightwing press.

I’ve been a Times subscriber for over a decade. Murdoch aside, the and though not without faults, the commentary rarely fails to show nuance and multiple sides to issues of the day.

I tend to think of it as the bookworm middle child sandwiched between the know-it-all elder child and the attention-seeking, rebellious younger child. I shall leave it to you to fill in the names of the other publications.

(With apologies to eldest and youngest children for using stereotypes.)

@DurtySarf

Maybe we need to start seeking out examples of films and TV shows with 'good' sex scenes - consensual, fun, no gratuitous nudity (or at least, if there is nudity, it's balanced with both male and female characters shown, iyswim), between adults, etc. Thoughts?

No.

The main objection I'd have there is artistic - you don't write a story based on showing things you approve of. Film is not some kind of didactic lesson for the viewer and treating it that way usually means it will be shitty. It's like these new guidelines suggesting that films will only be considered for an Academy award if they include sufficient diversity.

But it will also fail on the grounds of the logic. The premise of showing both is that they are "real" and add some sort of emotional value within the story arc. Which is true as far as it goes, they are both things that really happen, and they both, when found in a well written narrative, can add something to the emotional resonance of the story. We can see that in novels as well, albeit both are often both used mainly as emotional filler rather than for good writerly reasons. Sometimes they are also significant from a plotting perspective and drive the action of the story.

But what happens in a text is completely different than visual media, not so much because of the content itself (though the impact of something written vs seen is different) but because visual media uses actors. And the environment where young actresses are at a significant employment disadvantage because they don't want nude scenes isn't caused by rape scenes particularly. Emilia Clarke has disagreements about the way the wedding night was depicted for her character in GoT that were well founded artistically, but it wasn't the bulk of the nudity she had to do in that film - most were shots that were supposedly non-sexual situations.

I started to watch a series the other day, with a cast of people I would say mainly in their early 20s. Lots of them having fun, consensual sex, but it still involved lots of real, nude actors, pretending to screw people they work with in front of cameras, to be seen by thousands if not millions of people in their homes whom they have never met.

Yeah, I've have to say I'm not over eager for depictions of simulated consensual sex. I mean sure, it is perfectly possible to create an effective sex scene in a filmed media that actually aids the story, but I think that any prescriptive formula for such a thing would just end up as a reductive tick box exercise and wouldn't benefit anyone.

The impression I get is that Emilia Clarke was unhappy with many of the nude scenes in Game of Thrones, not just the rape scene.

I’ve been talking about both

@FloralBunting

Yeah, I've have to say I'm not over eager for depictions of simulated consensual sex. I mean sure, it is perfectly possible to create an effective sex scene in a filmed media that actually aids the story, but I think that any prescriptive formula for such a thing would just end up as a reductive tick box exercise and wouldn't benefit anyone.

Exactly. I don't see any necessity for graphic sex scenes, none at all.

Because we’re now back to having to explain that it’s not okay to say that women end up enjoying being raped. Because we’re back in 1970 apparently.

Did women in 1970 say they enjoyed being raped? Because I don't remember that at all. We (many of us) were actually quite prudish, wanted to wait till we married to have sex.

@FannyCann

Sorry, for avoidance of confusion that comment wasn't by Jo March (who often provides excellent, informative comments) I accidentally copied her heading of the next comment below.

Jo March’s comments are as equally enjoyable to read in The Times as Janice Turner’s columns.

I like to think she’s a Mumsnetter with special ties to FWR’s forum.

Sorry...

I’ve been talking about both because they both happened in Game of Thrones, not because I think nudity and exploitation of actresses is unique to rape scenes.

Sorry, Stripes galore, I misread your post about 70's women, just read it again and I think you didn't actually say that.

‘Did women in 1970 say they enjoyed being raped? Because I don't remember that at all. We (many of us) were actually quite prudish, wanted to wait till we married to have sex.‘

No they didn’t. I was referring to the trope of rape scenes where part way through the woman would be shown to start enjoying it. Feminists fought against this depiction. It became one of the things that will be cut by film classification boards.

Malahaha, my fault. I made points on one thread and then continued on this one as if it would make sense!

I agree that power differentials mean that young actresses at the start of their careers can be at risk of exploitation. For example, what happened to Maria Schneider on the set of Last Tango in Paris was horrifying. I hope that the industry has improved since those days.

Where it serves the plot and the characters, I do believe a scene of sexual intimacy can aid the story.

That said, when I think of intimate scenes that, in my view, have aided the story, I don't remember them as being particularly explicit. (Of course, I may go back and rewatch now and be embarrassed by my poor memory).

As has been discussed elsewhere with regards to 'Cuties', it is possible to film scenes in such a way as to suggest rather than depict.

I will think about what you have said further and may come back later. Or perhaps start another thread so I don't derail this one?

@Stripesgalore

‘Did women in 1970 say they enjoyed being raped? Because I don't remember that at all. We (many of us) were actually quite prudish, wanted to wait till we married to have sex.‘

No they didn’t. I was referring to the trope of rape scenes where part way through the woman would be shown to start enjoying it. Feminists fought against this depiction. It became one of the things that will be cut by film classification boards.

I have to say, I don't think you see that in tv or film now. In romance novels to some extent.

They differed from the book in that particular scene in GoT, I think because they were trying to avoid other things that would be seen as non-acceptable on television while keeping a similar emotional starting place for the characters. What Martin wrote worked in a novel and was emotionally believable, but difficult to convey visually, o the age of the character was not the same which changed the dynamic, and people tend to accept more complex motivations and responses in novels that would not be accepted on a screen.

But the writers didn't manage to pull it off and in fact made it worse, and almost incoherent really - it didn't make sense.

What Martin wrote worked in a novel and was emotionally believable

I know this is totally off-topic, but I thought Martin’s depiction of the wedding night scene between Dany/Drogo was not great at all, and totally contradicted in the next Dany POV chapter. I actually think the TV interpretation was better (and that’s a rarity for that particular series).

Thank you, Ovahere. I could see lots of references to being an award winner, but couldn't find very much information on the actual achievements.

@TheRealMcKennaDonsTinfoilHat

What Martin wrote worked in a novel and was emotionally believable

I know this is totally off-topic, but I thought Martin’s depiction of the wedding night scene between Dany/Drogo was not great at all, and totally contradicted in the next Dany POV chapter. I actually think the TV interpretation was better (and that’s a rarity for that particular series).

I'd agree there seemed to be a bit of a discordance between those two chapters - how did she get from being somewhat sexually interested in Drogo to being kind of shell-shocked and struggling so much? I took it that the basic interest was there - she was consistently attracted to men like that as time went on - but the whole thing being married off to him and among such strange people and physically active was just too much.

But it could have been more clearly depicted.

I don't know if this is of interest to anyone. BBC article about "intimacy coordinators" whose job it is to help actors in sex scenes e.g. help them set and assert their boundaries.

www.bbc.com/news/entertainment-arts-51745702

Goosefoot I could write for hours (and have) about what Martin got right and what he got wrong when writing female characters and about female sexuality in ASOIAF. What’s almost as interesting as the writing itself, is the reactions to it and how they differ in broad and general terms between men and women heavily invested in the fandom.

Suffice to say I think he writes some female characters really well and some things land really wide of the mark. It’s pretty clear from his writing that he’s never had children, and have very limited understanding of child birth and breastfeeding which he nevertheless attempts (and doesn’t always succeed) to describe in detail. On the other hand, his writing about growing sexuality in adolescent girls - particularly Sansa - is intelligent, sensitive and worthy of much discussion. Personally, I think she is his best developed female character, but the TV series never quite did her justice.

For all the many faults in the adaptation of GoT, it is clear that they were very sensitive to accusations of child sexual exploitation. Hence the ‘ageing up’ of several characters, omission of key scenes and modification of storylines. In particular, they emphasised the ‘legal age’ of Arya in season 7 in preparation for her scenes in season 8.

Anyway, I’m diverting the thread. It’s a subject I could waffle for hours about.

I have looked at the column again and half the comments have been deleted.

realMcKenna that's really interesting

Can someone copy and paste please? Or a share token?

Sorry, I can't get a share token now, for some reason some pieces seem to have a time limit. I can't c&p from the app image either (and nor should we copy whole pieces tbh, for copyright reasons- selected quotes are ok I believe ?)