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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Janice Turner on safeguarding manages to name everyone succinctly in one column

204 replies

NotBadConsidering · 12/09/2020 07:44

Cuties, Exist Loudly, Stonewall, NSPCC, Bergdorf, Tatchell, MAP...

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/8c46aad6-f461-11ea-9de6-a6e4d4016fb7?shareToken=e196d311d52618102baf33fd9f6a2fbd

This is why she wins writing awards. Gets so much across in a short space (waves to Janice! 👋Flowers)

OP posts:
SoManyActivities · 12/09/2020 11:02

Yes, what the fuck was that 'in an age so terrified of child sexuality' quote about?! Who said that?! What did they mean?!

EdgeOfACoin · 12/09/2020 11:02

And she'll have a word count.

queenofknives · 12/09/2020 11:03

This is something I’d expect Janice to write about but how could she if she bumps into him at work events or is friends with his partner.

I don't know. I think she is pretty fearless. But yes, maybe there would be deeper coverage if IK didn't work there. Are other papers covering the story with more depth, opinion pieces and investigatory articles?

I don't really think it's fair to hold a woman accountable for the behaviour of her partner. I agree that it reflects poorly on her judgement and possibly on her character, but ultimately we are only responsible for ourselves. I don't think men are ever held to account for what their partners do (and often not even for what they themselves do, but that's another matter) It would be extremely illiberal (and possibly illegal?) for the Times to sack IK because of her husband's criminality. They are in a difficult situation there. If they refused to cover the story at all, I would agree that was extremely concerning. But it seems they are covering it, just not as extensively as they could.

Ultimately I am not really interested in purity politics and don't expect to be 100% in agreement with every editorial decision made. I also don't think any other UK paper would be publishing Janice Turner - and in the end, it is the price of free speech. If we want free speech, we have to accept that people will get to say things we don't like as well as things we do. The Times is free to publish Janice Turner's writing but it is also free to publish India Knight's writing. They couldn't get rid of India Knight without putting Janice Turner at risk.

SoManyActivities · 12/09/2020 11:04

Just looked it up, it was Tim Robey for The Telegraph. I can't read the whole review because it's behind a paywall, but turns out I don't have to anyway because that quote is in the headline.

Thedisco2000 · 12/09/2020 11:04

OP's sharetoken doesn't work?

queenofknives · 12/09/2020 11:09

You're right though MillyMolly - I hadn't looked into this before, but you're right the story about Eric Joyce does involve IK in a way that merits reporting on. Still don't know how her employer could best handle that - they are in a bit of an awkward situation there.

Malahaha · 12/09/2020 11:18

Wonderful comments as always. And: the brilliant Jo March has referenced MN, calling us "the biggest online women's forum".
I knew she was here!
Flowers to Jo.

Datun · 12/09/2020 11:22

@SoManyActivities

Just looked it up, it was Tim Robey for The Telegraph. I can't read the whole review because it's behind a paywall, but turns out I don't have to anyway because that quote is in the headline.
His review has not gone down too well on Twitter, fortunately.
KayakingOnDown · 12/09/2020 11:23

Thank you for this. The comments are really really good.

I don't subscribe to the Times but usually buy the Sunday Times, have done for years.

MillyMollyFarmer · 12/09/2020 11:23

I don't really think it's fair to hold a woman accountable for the behaviour of her partner.

I’m holding her accountable for her behaviour, which is to support a sex offender to the extent he gets a lower sentence for crimes involving babies. I don’t consider having a zero tolerance approach to child safeguarding and abuse to be a case of ‘purity politics’. I find that to be a low blow given the topic actually. People make excuses for people they know and like, India’s doing it, so Janice did it and now so are those who admire her. I think it’s ok to have a line if it’s children and it’s ok to expect absolute solidarity from women who are championed by feminists on that issue.

Mollscroll · 12/09/2020 11:29

Great piece. I just got banned from MN for a week for making many of these points. MNHQ are really not seeing the big picture here. This is a scandal waiting to break and they are more interested in policing women than allowing light to be shed.

I don’t think they would be able to host Janice Turner’s article on MN despite it being evidenced and truthful, as were my posts. This should give Justine pause for thought. Whistleblowing about safeguarding fails not allowed on a parenting site....

queenofknives · 12/09/2020 11:33

I take your point, of course. My point is simply that I don't see what her employer could realistically do and I'm not willing to write off an entire publication over one issue, even though I agree they could do something more (that's what I mean by purity politics in this context). Has IK broken the law? If not, then what are they going to sack her for? How could they justify getting rid of her? Could they have a go at her for supporting her partner? Definitely, but would that open them up to some kind of legal situation? I just think they're in a bind.

Yes, I agree they should cover the story honestly and fairly and there's no very good excuse for not doing so, if they haven't. But I don't think Janice Turner can be held accountable for their failure. They do have other journalists and JT is not obliged to write about every story just because it falls within her area of interest.

Aesopfable · 12/09/2020 11:49

@SoManyActivities

Just looked it up, it was Tim Robey for The Telegraph. I can't read the whole review because it's behind a paywall, but turns out I don't have to anyway because that quote is in the headline.
Is the Telegraph covered by IPSO?
NearlyGranny · 12/09/2020 11:56

Sorry, Netflix, but twerking 12 year olds are figurative blood in the water to child abusers. All it does is risk strengthening their inner defence that little girls are 'asking for it'.

Every little girl in school uniform is going to be a little bit more exposed and vulnerable to catcalling and worse because this normalises predatory male behaviour.

Thedisco2000 · 12/09/2020 12:09

Thank you Igneococcus Great article.

MillyMollyFarmer · 12/09/2020 12:10

I'm not willing to write off an entire publication

I’m not suggesting anyone does. But we don’t need to fall over ourselves praising The Times or Janice even, because in context they’re not much different to any other MSM, or journalist who avoids difficult topics.

Thedisco2000 · 12/09/2020 12:10

People need to be aware of all this child grooming going on. It makes me anxious to think of how not only the girls in "Cuties" were treated by also how the film could be used for grooming.

TweeBree · 12/09/2020 12:15

Cuties, Netflix review: a provocative powder-keg for an age terrified of child sexuality

4/5
Forget the moral panic – Netflix’s controversial French import is disturbing and risqué because that’s exactly what it aims to be

By
Tim Robey,
FILM CRITIC
9 September 2020 • 2:41pm

The tricky line between marketing and exploitation caused a ruckus in the case of Cuties, a wild feature debut from French-Senegalese Maïmouna Doucouré. It won the directing award at Sundance before being snapped up by Netflix. Then a poster happened to it.

This was an image cribbed from the film’s most openly provocative sequence – the finale – which, out of context, made everyone see red. It showed four pre-teen girls striking “sexy” poses on a dance stage, wearing shiny crop tops, knee pads and booty shorts.

Netflix soon apologised for the poster, and switched to a different image of this quartet pouting to camera, but the damage was done. Doucouré received death threats on social media, and a petition to have the film banned has amassed over 340,000 signatures on change.org. Sight unseen – one can only presume – the originator of the latter Mary-Whitehouse-esque screed calls the film “disgusting”, “dangerous” and made “for the viewing pleasure of paedophiles”. The Turkish broadcasting watchdog RTÜK seems to have agreed, ordering the film’s removal from Netflix in that country.

But enough of the moral panic. No one involved in demonising this film has paused at any stage – or watched it – to consider that its very subject is the disturbing, premature sexualisation of young girls in French society. Doucouré is hardly sly with her theme: by the end, she goes all out to make us squirm.

Eleven-year-old Amy (Fathia Youssouf), a Senegalese Muslim, has recently moved to a Parisian housing estate with her mother (superb Maïmouna Gueye) and two younger brothers. Her father, who we never see, is about to take a second wife, and preparations for the dreaded wedding are underway. At school, a troupe of wannabe dancers called the “mignonnes” (“cuties”) catch Amy’s attention, but she feels too square and shy to fit in – at least until she pilfers a mobile phone from her uncle, and begins using it to take selfies, beautify herself and get tips from hip-hop twerking videos.

Doucouré is blatantly pushing buttons here – never more so than in the ever-more-eye-widening dance sequences, where Amy quickly graduates from the rookie in this crew to the one schooling them in risqué, finger-biting choreography. If the pageant finale of Little Miss Sunshine often springs to mind, she functions in the story as Alan Arkin to her own Abigail Breslin.

The other girls want to pass as 14 to attract boyfriends, and with Amy’s phone, they have worrying access to everything the internet can show. Their licentiousness starts to float free of strict plausibility. Amy borrows skimpy T-shirts from her brother, swipes cash and takes them all on shopping sprees. Their make-up budget starts to look enormous. Essentially, they’re aping the gang from Céline Sciamma’s Girlhood, who were 16 going on 25. In letting this play out, Doucouré is underlining an obvious fantasy of pre-pubescence: to fast-forward towards being treated as desirable.

The film is more an experiment in chutzpah than a slice of social realism. As the girls mess about recklessly and rehearse their moves, their lack of any supervision is odd, if semi-explained by the distracted chaos of Amy’s household. But they also know how their immaturity gives them a treacherous power, as we see when a security guard tries to hustle them out for trespassing and they brand him as a child molester. These certainly aren’t your neighbourhood’s average polite children. They’re twerking terrors of the pavement.

Cuties (Mignonnes) is Maimouna Doucoure's first feature
Cuties (Mignonnes) is Maimouna Doucoure's first feature CREDIT: AFP
Following some well-received shorts, Doucouré made this from a very personal place. The keenest parts explore the push/pull of her Muslim upbringing. Amy is acting out because of her father’s betrayal, and unwilling to follow her mother – who’s secretly devastated – down the path of demure submission to the patriarchy. Her rebellion is defiantly flaunting herself, and thanks to some brazen invites from the film’s camerawork, the routines she masterminds tend to make the male gaze curl up in horror.

This is powder-keg provocation in an age so terrified of child sexuality. Thanks to the furore, it has blown up just as much in Doucouré’s face. But the film’s first hour is top-notch for a debut. The child performances are electric. The range of emotion she gets from Youssouf – not just the jaw-dropping cosmetic transformations – mark her out as a magician with actors. Gang leader Angelica – quite the failure for nominative determinism, there – is played with almost Larry Clark-esque attitude by Médina El Aidi-Azouni, another brilliant find.

How Doucouré achieved her joyous last shot, I don’t quite know. Imperfect as it is, this film deserves to launch a career, not end one.

MillyMollyFarmer · 12/09/2020 12:24

What a terrible review, the guys a creep and a moron. You cannot sacrifice one group of children and exploit them to make a point. If it’s wrong, you don’t join in to prove it’s wrong.

Stripesgalore · 12/09/2020 12:31

Thanks to posters about get bans for criticising paedophilia Flowers

When feminists started raising specific trans issues on here, many posters got deleted for saying things we are now all allowed to say. I hope things go the same way with opposing child sex exploitation, and MN changes its position.

Stripesgalore · 12/09/2020 12:32

Who, not about!

NotBadConsidering · 12/09/2020 12:33

Cuties is like the Cardi B WAP song. It doesn’t matter what the intentions of the artist, it’s still produces material that predators in the case of the former, or lecherous men in the case of the latter, are wanting to see. They don’t sit there watching it guiltily thinking about how they’re meant to question the narrative of the world, they sit there wanking just like they would do otherwise, but also laughing at the gullibility of the filmmakers and singers who think they’re being clever, artistic and subversive but are actually playing right into their hands.

OP posts:
MillyMollyFarmer · 12/09/2020 12:35

They don’t sit there watching it guiltily thinking about how they’re meant to question the narrative of the world, they sit there wanking just like they would do otherwise, but also laughing at the gullibility of the filmmakers and singers who think they’re being clever, artistic and subversive but are actually playing right into their hands.

Exactly.

I’ve seen people claim this is only being criticised because a black woman made it. Jfc.

FloralBunting · 12/09/2020 12:36

But they also know how their immaturity gives them a treacherous power, as we see when a security guard tries to hustle them out for trespassing and they brand him as a child molester. These certainly aren’t your neighbourhood’s average polite children. They’re twerking terrors of the pavement.

Treacherous power? This whole section is suggesting that these girls 'know what they're doing' and have power over male adults. This review is a disgrace, and the attitude it demonstrates is exactly what those of us who have complained are talking about. Frankly, I think the suggestion to check his hard drive sounds reasonable.

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