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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Janice Turner on safeguarding manages to name everyone succinctly in one column

204 replies

NotBadConsidering · 12/09/2020 07:44

Cuties, Exist Loudly, Stonewall, NSPCC, Bergdorf, Tatchell, MAP...

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/8c46aad6-f461-11ea-9de6-a6e4d4016fb7?shareToken=e196d311d52618102baf33fd9f6a2fbd

This is why she wins writing awards. Gets so much across in a short space (waves to Janice! 👋Flowers)

OP posts:
TweeBree · 12/09/2020 14:42

@BovaryX

The Telegraph is shedding readers like a desert cat sheds its fur in June. This review is a perfect example of why. Its comment section is full of people saying they have cancelled their subscription.
I previously had supported the Telegraph but cancelled recently as there seemed to be a change on how they discussed women's issues.
Goosefoot · 12/09/2020 14:55

@FloralBunting

But they also know how their immaturity gives them a treacherous power, as we see when a security guard tries to hustle them out for trespassing and they brand him as a child molester. These certainly aren’t your neighbourhood’s average polite children. They’re twerking terrors of the pavement.

Treacherous power? This whole section is suggesting that these girls 'know what they're doing' and have power over male adults. This review is a disgrace, and the attitude it demonstrates is exactly what those of us who have complained are talking about. Frankly, I think the suggestion to check his hard drive sounds reasonable.

I don't know. I think the danger of this is what the film is trying to talk about, and that's what the review is saying. The problem is that the execution fails, and that's because of larger blind spots in our culture around representation by actors.

Young girls are sometimes quite aware of this sort of sexual power, and it is indeed very treacherous. They understand it's dangers, only that they can potentially use it, and that it gets them something, be it attention or material goods or whatever. That's the problem, it's a type of power in the most immediate sense, from their perspective, but they can't see the bigger picture or consequences.

That's a major theme in literature, isn't it? That power is very appealing and seductive but always asks a price, or changes the person who seeks it. We protect children from that because they are more vulnerable even than adults in making that trade, and that it makes them easily exploitable.

It's an interesting story for a film because it really is a major divide in our culture. Children are increasingly being sexualised overtly - the outfits those kids wear are nothing you wouldn't see in hundreds of dance competitions - yet people are also hugely reactive against things like child sexual abuse in institutions. The same mothers putting their kids in these dance competitions or buying these clothes for young girls, and objecting to school dress codes that disallow them, would freak out at statements about their daughters being sexually desirable. But they must know that they themselves are sexualising them. And the same is true in the culture more widely. We are celebrating and denying the very same thing.

The director seems to want to contrast that with what she experienced in a community that claims to protect girls and women from sexual exploitation, by saying that too fails in another way. It's rather bleak really, she doesn't seem to see another option on the table.

The failure is that she doesn't seemed to have considered that her child actors are real people, and that she has used them to create another example of the spectacle she is being critical of.

moptophairshop · 12/09/2020 14:55

Thanks for the link 2fallsagain, I wholeheartedly agree with all the points raised in the thread and by Janice in this article.

Safeguarding children is the responsibility of all adults and not something to opt in or out of. What is terrifying is the number of individuals and organisations that don't realise this. For some though it goes beyond a lack of awareness of this and moves into a wilful disregard of them. Exist Loudly blocking the National Crime Agency when they offered help from CEOPs clearly falls into this group. If a single child were to be put at risk as a direct consequence of their actions, it would not be acceptable to feign ignorance or claim they only had good intentions. Unfortunately for them, good intentions are not a substitute for proper safeguarding procedures.

xxyzz · 12/09/2020 14:56

What Datun said.

That headline is completely back to front.

The problem with the age is not that it is too 'terrified of child sexuality'. It is that is too accepting and even welcoming of those turned on by child sexuality and those who exploit children for their sexuality.

Datun · 12/09/2020 14:57

@SoManyActivities

Yeah I don't get it. If the whole film is supposed to be about criticising the sexualisation of kids then 'a provocative powder-keg for an age terrified of child sexuality' doesn't make any sense at all?!
It only makes sense from the point of view of someone who finds it all rather thrilling.

And he doesn't see it. He really does not see it.

Datun · 12/09/2020 14:59

And yes to rape scenes in general. It's really not 'entertaining', is it.

xxyzz · 12/09/2020 14:59

Ie the criticisms being made are of pervy, exploitative adults, not of the children in the film who are the victims in this story.

Implying that those who object are criticising the children rather than those who exploit them is just outrageous.

Goosefoot · 12/09/2020 15:10

@xxyzz

Ie the criticisms being made are of pervy, exploitative adults, not of the children in the film who are the victims in this story.

Implying that those who object are criticising the children rather than those who exploit them is just outrageous.

I think this gets lost because people who are film critics, for example, are looking at it as if it's a book. Like Lolita, Or Death in Venice, or whatever, which include a sexualisation of some kind about a child, but doesn't directly present a real, sexualised child, because it's text. The story is clearly about what is going on with that.

If films were like that, you could take that kind of stand back literary approach, and you might well see someone criticising the sexualisation of the girls in the story as totally missing the point.

I actually don't think that rape scenes are necessarily the worst part of the way films sexualise women - in most cases there is at least some narrative reason for them, though showing them is typically unnecessary. Worse is simply the casual nudity and depictions of sex, they are basically eye candy, unrelated to the story, and they are increasingly ubiquitous.

BovaryX · 12/09/2020 15:10

I previously had supported the Telegraph but cancelled recently as there seemed to be a change on how they discussed women's issues

Agreed. It's dire. Apparently it is up for sale. Its website is awful and its content is increasingly woeful. There is a market for right of centre/freedom of speech media with a diversity of views and coherent, intelligent discourse. I think that's why The Spectator is doing well. I think The Times is benefiting from an exodus of Guardian and Telegraph readers.

FloralBunting · 12/09/2020 15:11

I recall a conversation about rape scenes in which someone suggested that as they happen, we should see them, and a feminist compared them to scenes of person pooing because it happens and the pro-rape-scene person said "Ew, no one would want to see that!" which obviously left the glaring question "People want to see rape?"

Tanith · 12/09/2020 15:15

I keep seeing that Tanya Compas is "award winning" and "multi award winning".
Which awards has Tanya won?

7Days · 12/09/2020 15:18

The best piece on Peter Tatchell I have read was on gript.ie. Can't link sorry but a Google will get it.
It's a right wing publication- too right form me, frankly - but that article is very clear and concise and lets the facts speak for themselves.

MillyMollyFarmer · 12/09/2020 15:19

People want to see rape?"

Sadly, they do. Game of Thrones is the best example I can think of, the mass rape of this man’s daughters he regularly raped too, while Jon Snow, the father and others sat around a fire chatting was particularly horrific and I can’t imagine how people involved in the scene felt. The blonde dragon lady being raped by her husband she was forced to marry and then falling in love? The rape scene was a big moment in the episode too, horrible. They had explicit Male nudity, but not male rape scenes.

Vargas · 12/09/2020 15:21

Janice Turner alone is worth every penny of my subscription to the Times.

FloralBunting · 12/09/2020 15:22

@MillyMollyFarmer

People want to see rape?"

Sadly, they do. Game of Thrones is the best example I can think of, the mass rape of this man’s daughters he regularly raped too, while Jon Snow, the father and others sat around a fire chatting was particularly horrific and I can’t imagine how people involved in the scene felt. The blonde dragon lady being raped by her husband she was forced to marry and then falling in love? The rape scene was a big moment in the episode too, horrible. They had explicit Male nudity, but not male rape scenes.

Oh, undoubtedly, and sickening it is too. But I just remembered the exchange because it was done in such a way that the person was effectively put in the position of saying they wanted to watch rape, which is quite an effective way of waking people up to what they unthinkingly accept.
Stripesgalore · 12/09/2020 15:24

Emilia Clarke was sexually exploited by Game of Thrones. She has spoken out about it.

It is gratuitous sexual violence.

colouringindoors · 12/09/2020 15:29

Excellent article, she is such an amazing writer. I Really hope this is widely read.

OvaHere · 12/09/2020 15:30

@Tanith

I keep seeing that Tanya Compas is "award winning" and "multi award winning". Which awards has Tanya won?
She is on the British LGBT awards 2020. There might have been something from Vogue too (based on a quick search)

www.britishlgbtawards.com/just-eat-top-10-outstanding-contributors-to-lgbt-life-2020/

gardenbird48 · 12/09/2020 15:34

@Stripesgalore

Emilia Clarke was sexually exploited by Game of Thrones. She has spoken out about it.

It is gratuitous sexual violence.

I couldn’t watch Game of Thrones because if the horrible rape scenes (and stupid squelchy sound effects every time someone’s limb was chopped off) - I really don’t understand how so many people saw it as entertainment. There were sadistic scenes of sexual abuse - yet so many people enjoyed watching it Confused
Stripesgalore · 12/09/2020 15:39

I watched the first episode and thought it was such a horrific rape that I didn’t watch any further episodes.

I did have people explain to me that the rape was fine because she ends up loving her rapist husband.

Because we’re now back to having to explain that it’s not okay to say that women end up enjoying being raped. Because we’re back in 1970 apparently.

Stripesgalore · 12/09/2020 15:43

Here’s an article about what they’re attempting to do to make sex scenes less exploitative. They discuss Emilia Clarke’s comments in it:

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.bbc.com/news/amp/entertainment-arts-51745702

Frankiegoes · 12/09/2020 15:52

There are so many rape scenes on TV and in film, and they say they are included as it’s a real life issue that needs to be covered. However, one of the biggest search topic on Pornhub is rape/forced sex, and many men like to watch it, not because of the ‘issues’, but because it obviously turns them on.

On the subject of Cuties, the main problem I can see is that young girls will watch the dance scene on TicTok/YouTube and copy it, not realising the message that the film was mean to portray. Just showing that sort of scene makes it more socially acceptable to girls.

DurtySarf · 12/09/2020 16:22

Maybe we need to start seeking out examples of films and TV shows with 'good' sex scenes - consensual, fun, no gratuitous nudity (or at least, if there is nudity, it's balanced with both male and female characters shown, iyswim), between adults, etc. Thoughts?

MillyMollyFarmer · 12/09/2020 16:40

I did have people explain to me that the rape was fine because she ends up loving her rapist husband.

The actor who played the rapist/husband, Jason Momoa, said in an interview once, ‘ yeah my job is great, I get to come to work and rape beautiful women all day’. It was years ago but it came up on social media last year I think and he apologised.

MillyMollyFarmer · 12/09/2020 16:41

Maybe we need to start seeking out examples of films and TV shows with 'good' sex scenes - consensual, fun, no gratuitous nudity

I love that idea. Perhaps someone would start a thread and we could add films we see.

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