Meet the Other Phone. Flexible and made to last.

Meet the Other Phone.
Flexible and made to last.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Virgin Active changing rooms segregated by gender identity

289 replies

EdgeOfACoin · 10/09/2020 12:50

Okay, I know this has been mentioned on passing on another thread, but I think it needs its own discussion.

Virgin Active have said that their changing rooms are segregated by gender identity and not by biological sex:

mobile.twitter.com/VirginActiveUK/status/1303378847711272961

I'm a VA member. This is something I would be prepared to cancel my membership over. Are they seriously saying that any male may access women-only communal changing rooms, where there are no individual cubicles, where women routinely queue for showers, provided he says he identifies as a woman?

This isn't about toilets. This isn't about who is 'peeing next to you' in the next cubicle. This is about women having to agree to undress in the presence of male-bodied strangers if they wish to use the facilities.

How is this even remotely defensible?

(I like the Twitter replies though.)

OP posts:
NiceLegsShameAboutTheFace · 12/09/2020 13:03

On a more positive note, any hints and tips about how I should approach the meeting with my club manager next week would be hugely appreciated.

I'd like to stick to the legal issues as far as possible - I'm not sure how much he knows about the Equality Act and the law appertaining to this situation - and minimise my personal (highly emotive) feelings on the subject.

My aim is to speak for the women who disagree with this, rather than make it a NiceLegs rant about the patriarchy in general. If there's anything you'd like me to address, please let me know 🙂

I doubt I'll change the policy but I'm not going down without a fight 💪

Siameasy · 12/09/2020 13:06

My friend has family membership there cos the kids do swimming lessons. Her kids were pre school age when they started the lessons so you can imagine the implications...

MichelleofzeResistance · 12/09/2020 13:25

I've seen the comments about "stop being so prudish and get over yourselves" as well Edge

It's let them eat caking. The voice of someone so ignorant of the reality and diversity of female life and female experience that in their naiive world view it's that easy.

For the women these policies will exclude and most impact, most of them would be fucking thrilled if it was purely a choice they could make and something they could just choose to get over.

Incidentally you will never hear any of the 'just get over it' proponents suggest that the male people pursuing this policy should ever have to get over anything: they would be outraged at your insensitivity and ignorance in suggesting such a thing - making it clear that they are capable of understanding social barriers and the importance of feelings and wellbeing and safety and freedom of choice, but only and exclusively for males. There's no reciprocation or equality in their values or thinking.

Again, you're left wondering: has this basic cognitive dissonance not occurred to you? Are you aware but too uncomfortable to admit to yourself or anyone else that you're actually supporting a highly misogynistic, sexist, anti-woman agenda in the belief that females should be oppressed and allowed less rights and consideration because male people by virtue of their birth sex are of higher value and importance? Is it some distorted 'ends justify the means' view where you see female people as needing to be collateral damage in society to the greater good? How are you ethically investing in such an agenda?

I wish someone would explain this. But all I see, even in the MSM, is people trying to hide it and talk around it and pretend it's just not happening. And getting really cross when women keep insisting on talking about it and pointing out the problems.

OldCrone · 12/09/2020 13:45

I did have a conversation with a guy at work once, who took the view that women should just stop being prudish and men and women should change together (apparently everyone in Scandinavia have no such 'hang ups'), but at least he was honest enough to argue in favour of mixed-sex changing rooms.

Where has this myth come from that the Scandinavians have mixed sex changing rooms everywhere?

This man became legally female in Denmark, where they have self-ID, then started using women's changing rooms. I've never been sure if this was just done as a stunt to show up the lunacy.

Current court case in Sweden where a transwoman has been prevented from using the female changing rooms at work.

www.twobirds.com/en/news/articles/2020/sweden/sweden-did-stockholm-hospital-sodersjukhuset-discriminate-against-a-transgender-person

Ereshkigalangcleg · 12/09/2020 13:46

Incidentally you will never hear any of the 'just get over it' proponents suggest that the male people pursuing this policy should ever have to get over anything: they would be outraged at your insensitivity and ignorance in suggesting such a thing

YY

EdgeOfACoin · 12/09/2020 14:59

Where has this myth come from that the Scandinavians have mixed sex changing rooms everywhere?

I know, OldCrone! Frustratingly, I didn't combat that argument as I wasn't sure of my facts. However, last time I was in Sweden I'm pretty sure they had male and female toilets. Also in Iceland (not technically Scandinavia) there were separate changing rooms for men and women at the blue lagoon and secret lagoon. In Iceland they seemed quite pushy about the fact that they wanted everyone to shower completely naked before using the lagoons. However, the showers at the secret lagoon were communal but they weren't mixed-sex!

(And while some women happily stripped off, many didn't, preferring to shower in their swimsuits.)

OP posts:
SerenityNowwwww · 12/09/2020 15:28

So people saying that men and women should be cool stripping off in changing rooms and strutting their stuff... not all that many women do actually wander around starkers in any changing rooms or saunas I’ve been in (and I’ve asked - men don’t really either).

Who are all these naturists? It makes me think of films where men are killed up for imagining that all young women have sleepovers where they wear baby dolls and have pillow fights... the truth is pretty boring...

Norma27 · 14/09/2020 06:51

Has anybody heard back from VA yet? I know one pp has a meeting with them this week.
I have just emailed again and said I want a reply today.

iguanadonna · 14/09/2020 06:59

On Scandinavian changing rooms - no, they're single sex. Anywhere naked is single sex unless with people you know. So saunas at swimming pools are in the single sex changing rooms. People have mixed sex saunas at home or with friends, but usually with towels over genitals at least when moving around.

There was some stunt with setting up a mixed sex changing room somewhere a few years ago which attracted a lot of press attention. Funnily enough I've since 'met' one of the women involved in a radical feminist group. Turned mixed sex changing rooms are a road to enlightenment on the differences between the sexes.

NiceLegsShameAboutTheFace · 14/09/2020 07:15

@Norma27

To be fair the manager at my club invited me to a personal meeting to speak about this, which I think is a step in the right direction. The meeting's on Wednesday morning – I'm taking a day's leave from work to do this – and I'll feedback after.

Any tips on what to ask him/what to point out to him would be appreciated.

Thanks everyone Smile

NiceLegsShameAboutTheFace · 14/09/2020 07:17

And yes, here in God's Own Country some women do wander around naked in the changing rooms. I had a 20 minute in depth conversation with a woman about life in general and she was completely naked Shock

Norma27 · 14/09/2020 08:07

@NiceLegsShameAboutTheFace definitely good they are having a meeting with you.
I'm new to these boards so don't have much advice. Hopefully others will help with the relevant legal aspects etc
I definitely see lots of naked women in the changing rooms, and women doing hair and makeup in just their underwear.
The showers also don't lock and have gaps at the top and bottom.

OneEpisode · 14/09/2020 09:50

DH used to take DD to Virgin Active whilst I was at work. They had to go in separate changing rooms which resulted in some shouting in the aftermath because dd would dawdle.
Now DH can walk into the ladies to check on her, much more convenient for my family! No ID needed, no problem.
Ours had a couple of nooks opening into the otherwise open plan changing area, and just glass screens on the showers.
DH is tall, solid, bearded so few female customers would challenge.

ThinEndoftheWedge · 14/09/2020 09:50

Nice

The YouGov polls - someone else will be able to provide a link - that when the question is explicit about adult males with fully intact genitalia (the vast majority of TW) using changing rooms with women and girls, the vast majority of people their customers- inc the under 25s (more likely to be woke) don’t think it is right.

Be clear that under the EA (10) exemptions you can legally discriminate on basis of sex as a proportionate aim - even if the person has a GRC because it would be based on discrimination of sex and not gender reassignment.

From Legal Feminist.org.uk:

There’s a comment on Audrey Ludwig’s “Blog about Boxes” that seems to me to need a short post of its own. The full comment is

Can I ask a question about something I’ve seen claimed many times (including by senior politicians) – “the law states that transwomen are women.” Does the law actually say this?
The short answer is no: the law doesn’t define the terms “transwoman” or “trans woman” at all.

The Gender Recognition Act 2004 does change some people’s legal sex. Obviously the law can’t change anyone’s biological sex. The fact that the law can’t mess with material reality is the point Canute was making when he forbade the tide to come in. But section 9 of the Gender Recognition Act 2004 has the effect that some trans women (i.e. the very small number who hold a GRC – only a few thousand to date) are deemed for most legal purposes to be women, although exceptions apply.

The Equality Act 2010 forbids discrimination (in various different contexts) on grounds of gender reassignment. That means that in those contexts where the Act has effect (employment, provision of public services, education etc.), it’s mostly unlawful to treat a person less favourably than you’d treat other people because they are proposing to undergo, are undergoing or have undergone “a process (or part of a process) for the purpose of reassigning the person’s sex by changing physiological or other attributes of sex.” If a person is somewhere on that path, it doesn’t matter whether they’ve got a GRC or not: they’re entitled anyway not to suffer discrimination on grounds of gender reassignment. There are some necessary exceptions, but in general it’s obviously right that there should be a legal prohibition against discrimination on this ground.

But it’s important to note that that doesn’t mean that trans women are entitled to be treated for all purposes as if they were biological women. If a trans woman who doesn’t have a GRC wants to access a female-only space, and is refused access, that’s not discrimination on grounds of gender reassignment, but discrimination on grounds of sex. She’s refused access not because she’s trans, but because she’s both legally and biologically male. That means she can lawfully be refused access any time it’s lawful at all to have a female-only space. In my view, it also means she almost certainly should be refused access in those circumstances. That’s because it’s only lawful at all to provide a single-sex space or service if there’s a good reason for sex segregation; but if trans women are admitted, it will cease to be a single-sex space.

If a trans woman who does have a GRC wants to access a female-only space or service, it’s still likely to be lawful to refuse, because of the exceptions that apply to prohibitions on discrimination on grounds of gender reassignment.

In short, the Equality Act does recognise that although sex is usually a bad and arbitrary reason for treating people differently, there are contexts in which biological sex matters.
Author Naomi CunninghamPosted on July 17, 2020Tags sex discrimination25 Comments

Other quick thoughts:

Are they at risk of being sued if an incident from mixed changing rooms happens on their premisises/bad press because you have already warned them that this is a risk to women and girls??

Will they make clear signage to all that the changing rooms are mixed sex- so women and girls can decide, not men. If it says women - then they are giving false information.

OneEpisode · 14/09/2020 10:08

The full you gov survey is on their website no paywall. 2020/07/16
Paid for by pink news who didn’t like the results and only published the first section.
Last section:
“When specified that the transgender person in question has not had gender reassignment surgery.” The question “transgender women should be allowed to use women’s changing rooms” is largely x’s.

yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2020/07/16/where-does-british-public-stand-transgender-rights

Try and print in colour.

I’d also take a print out of the first page of this www.stonewall.org.uk/trans-advisory-group
Has the photo shared with the public of the bearded Alex,

Surveying Virgin Active members on allowing self ID illustrated with Alex would get a strong no I would think.,

334bu · 14/09/2020 10:27

wingsoverscotland.com/abolishing-women/

Above is link to a poll commissioned by Wings over Scotland showing what happens when question is more specific.
A similar poll was commissioned by Helen Staniland and is pinned on her twitter account.

MichelleofzeResistance · 14/09/2020 11:49

Any tips on what to ask him/what to point out to him would be appreciated.

I'll offer the question I'm now starting to repeat in my sleep: (never having got any kind of answer)

What are you going to do with female people (I'm afraid the distinction has become necessary) who due to their faith, culture, disability, medical needs or history of rape or sexual abuse/assault/domestic violence are not able to use mixed sex facilities? This would be direct discrimination against them on the grounds of their protected characteristic, wouldn't it?

Are you now holding a policy of excluding those women - many from vulnerable communities who struggle to access sport and exercise? Where is the information about your services not meeting these women's needs? Or would you provide different facilities for those women if necessary?

If so, how will you label and raise awareness of those facilities so that those women can find them? Obviously you can't seriously expect a woman to approach a random member of staff and disclose deeply sensitive personal data in order to request this, and there are then issues about 'outing' women with these highly sensitive additional needs, isn't there?

MichelleofzeResistance · 14/09/2020 11:53

Should have added: you may need to point out to whoever you speak to that subjective identity makes no difference whatever to the issues presented by mixed sex provision. The real and practical barriers women deal with are not removed by someone's subjective self identification. This is a political belief that not everyone is able to share, even if you leave aside the aspect of insisting that everyone must conform to a belief they may not themselves hold.

MichelleofzeResistance · 14/09/2020 11:56

And another obvious one following that: what is different in the subjective experience of a female person being asked to change or use showers alongside a male person who identifies as a man, and a male person who identifies as trans, non binary or gender fluid?

If there is a policy that it is not acceptable to simply make all changing rooms mixed sex, and to ask that boys over a certain age don't change in the women's facilities, so there must be a reason why this sex segregation is being preserved? What are those reasons and how do they change for females in the light of self identification?

OneEpisode · 14/09/2020 13:44

It’s not just boys that can’t share a changing room with their opposite sex parent. My dd, from aged 8, had to change away from the “protection” of her dad. Only under 8s can change in either changing room under adult supervision.
From 8, she was sent to the “designated areas in the changing room of her sex”. Her dad sent her in and met her at the steps to the pool believing she was in a female only space.

Norma27 · 14/09/2020 15:41

My VA have tried to call me, and I have tried to call them back. Just waiting for them to call me again now!

Ereshkigalangcleg · 14/09/2020 15:48

Great questions, Michelle.

SerenityNowwwww · 14/09/2020 15:56

So an 8 year old child can be sent to the relevant sex changing room yet an adult is categorises by gender? That’s a bit confusing isn’t it?

So if it is agreed that an 8 year old child should not be exposed to the opposite sex in a changing room, then how does this work?

OneEpisode · 14/09/2020 16:27

Serenity Virgin Active know very well that self id does not work.
8 year olds is an absolutely live issue that users will have made the site manager know about.
Many parents of 9 year olds could have a preference that conflicts with the privacy of other users. The site manager will be used to arbitrating this. Asking if they ask for id for taller children might be the way to go...

OneEpisode · 14/09/2020 16:29

No one is alleging the 9 year old is a massive threat to the safety of single sex spaces. It’s a conflicting rights issue, privacy & etc.