Use pronouns or face dismissal

[MrsSlocombesPussy]

Saw this on Twitter

twitter.com/cupwomenspledge/status/1300406897166766080?s=21

"During the period when there was no government in Northern Ireland, the civil service altered its rule book to say that all workers must use whatever words transgender people want, or face disciplinary action – and possible dismissal."

I feel the same as @yourhairiswinterfire
I have no issue with genuine trans dysphoric people and their pronouns.
But I would find it difficult with the histrionic types. Tbh I would just completely avoid them or referring to them at all costs. I can see many people doing the same.

I've just seen this FOI request about this policy.

www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/details_of_consultation_of_trans_4#incoming-1480729

Stonewall and some other groups were invited to review it and suggest changes. Stonewall made extensive comments about it, but the persistent misgendering clause doesn't seem to have been in the draft.

The private sector tend to be a bit more commercial when they realise misrepresenting the Equality Act can have financial costs.
So will there be a few companies asking for their money back for faulty training courses? Presumably they will not appreciate the additional costs to be incurred for re-updating all their paperwork and policies to comply with the actual law?

So will there be a few companies asking for their money back for faulty training courses?

That would be glorious! I'd love to be a fly on the wall at Liars HQ when the claims start coming in

Just thinking we will be accused of creating a hostile working environmental possibly even a hate crime if we discuss smear tests or menopausal flushes at work.

God forbid someone mentions childbirth or breast-feeding. Being provided facilities to express milk at work could be seen as exclusionary.

That’s where we’re going if we don’t stop this madness.

With regard the autistic teen, I have a similar story.

About twenty five years ago I was in a shop with a transgender friend (M2F) when a mum with a couple of kids about three years old. Kids pulled and called at their mum, pointed at my friend and said 'mummy, mummy, look a man'. They both (the kids) started laughing. The mum told them both off, apologised, telling the kids to 'stop it, you might be like that when you grow up'. Not sure if that comment didn't make it worse! Anyway, my poor friend was mortified, but actually laughed about it. Also, my friend knew that they didn't pass, and there was nothing really that could be done about that.

Yes re pips bounce.

It's a total pisstake.

They are v high up. Powerful. And everyone needs to check themselves before speaking.

It's a total power trip.

I struggle with this issue tbh. Forced use of pronouns feels wrong, but on the other hand there are many truths that can't be said outright.

For example, it wouldn't go down well if I insisted on calling my workmate 'Fat Wendy' and refused to desist as it was a true statement.

Describing your colleague as fat is not necessary (I suppose unless you are trying to distinguish her from Thin Wendy).

Using pronouns is a pretty standard part of sentence construction.

Like anyone, I would call Fat Wendy, Wendy in accounts, to be polite. And I would call someone trans they if I remembered. I won’t lie - I won’t call Fat Wendy, Thin Wendy.

You only use pronouns when someone isn't there though don't you?

That's the bit I find weird.

And the time it will take to look up everyone's pronouns during meetings etc.

I would just go with they for everything. But I suspect that won't go down well.

Babs might enjoy that though.

Describing your colleague as fat is not necessary (I suppose unless you are trying to distinguish her from Thin Wendy).

"Which one is Wendy?"

"Oh, she's the large one."

That's ok isn't it? No untruths spoken.

@NoShitHemlock

I have been in the NI Civil Service for nearly 30 years and have been GC for not quite that long. I have been expecting this guidance to come in for a while and typical NICS they bring it in by the back door when no one is looking.

So what to do strokes chin......well I am more than happy to call someone whatever they would like to be called. My mental gymnastics are limber enough to make sure to use their name and only their name and absolutely no pronouns, so no bullying here.

But what I am most looking forward to is when Dave from Finance (who is Barbara every other Tuesday and twice on a Friday) comes into the women's toilets. I believe I will have the most terrible, heavy periods (happy peri-menopause!), and will be quite vocal about it. If Dave Barbara is an AGP then he she will no doubt enjoy the full conversation I will have with anyone who will listen about the clots the size of tennis balls (this has actually happened to me!).

Dave Barbara might still wish to visit the women's toilets, but I guarantee he she wont do it when I am in. Welcome to the reality of womanhood.

I am too old for this shite.

Hello and agree 👍

You only use pronouns when someone isn't there though don't you?

No you don’t. Particularly in group discussions or meetings you use them quite a bit about people that are present.

Jane do you mind forwarding the details to Sue?
I’ve already sent them to her.

If you could all please send your updates to Ann, she will collate them into one document and put it in the shared folder.

Jack and I were talking the other day and he said he thought it wasn’t possible anyway. Is that right Jack? Am I recalling our conversation correctly?

If I am told to put pronouns in my email signature, I will fully kick off.

The "inclusive language" guide is a sight to behold. Utterly contradictory and reads like it has been written by an over enthusiastic teenager.

You only use pronouns when someone isn't there though don't you?

This is a common misconception on these boards I've noticed.

You can say to somebody (in front of Donald):

Donald has just told me that he has painted his face orange.

(I had nobody in mind particularly.)

Cross-post City Arizona.

I can foresee productivity rates going down and sickness with stress (for worrying about using the wrong pronouns) going up

Especially days when there are large meetings or meetings with particular staff attending. It would distract from the actual meeting.

I worked somewhere where the personality of several attendees at our weekly early morning staff meeting meant that it just descended into playground flinging of insults and petty point scoring (and swearing, threats to leave etc). I used to miss the bus often on those days and just go to my office and do some work (and would be updated on who said what to who later).

Yes you're right re using in a meeting.

The issue on calls is you may never have met/ seen the people on the call. So you'd have to go and look them all up beforehand and keep referring to a list.

With unisex/ non English names you're not familiar with you tend to take your cue from the voice, that won't be sufficient.

Have they really thought about what this will mean in real life for especially larger or multinational companies?

If you have colleagues in countries that are not aware of this sort of thing, how will the info be disseminated to them? If you have someone in X country where this is not a thing, how do you explain that before all meetings they have to look up the pronouns of everyone on the call they haven't met etc etc