Use pronouns or face dismissal

[MrsSlocombesPussy]

Saw this on Twitter

twitter.com/cupwomenspledge/status/1300406897166766080?s=21

"During the period when there was no government in Northern Ireland, the civil service altered its rule book to say that all workers must use whatever words transgender people want, or face disciplinary action – and possible dismissal."

I’m sometimes called ‘he’ by some relatives - and ds called ‘she’.

I've been wondering about people with Tourette's. It's so hard to stop themselves ticking and saying inappropriate things without the added stress of pronouns not matching sex.

@namechanger3108

Namechanged as a bit of a lurker but have seen the consequences of being outed. I recently joined NI Civil Service, that is independent of the Civil Service in the rest of the UK and there are indeed about 23,000 civil servants.

I've only joined in the last few months and so still in probation so afraid to ask too many questions. I haven't read it since first joining but the guidance is very much of you make a mistake and apologise and move on. But consistently using the wrong name/ pronouns may result in disciplinary action. It also states that the person transitioning may use the facilities with their new gender. It did reference stonewall so I think that is where it has come from. But the law is different here, the GRA applies but the equality act 2010 does not. There is a NI specific piece of legislation from 1976 which covers equality and I'm still trying to figure out if the sex based exemptions apply.

So in short I think the same thing as has been seen in other government guidance has happened in that an over reliance on an external organisations has happened.

I think the NI Health and Safety in the workplace regulations have some sex specific protections.

A friend of mine worked with a transman who changed his man name several times--from Kyle to Trevor to Jay or some damn thing. So she could have been fired for not keeping track of which name du jour this person was identifying with at the moment.

I often get my dog's and cat's names muddled up... I not only missex them, I misspecies them in the bargain It takes me several meetings to remember new human names... then there's all the important details about them that I struggle to remember to ask about in conversation... how did your daughter do in her exams, is your mother home from hospital etc? Adding another dimension of complexity through mandated non-natural pronouns, my brain would give up completely. 🤯

There's no bloody hope for those of us who can't remember names or faces or what people are wearing or whether they wear glasses. I failed the visual memory test I was doing on five year olds.

@SerenityNowwwww

What if your first language doesn’t use pronouns and you make mistakes?

My friends and colleagues who speak Mandarin or Cantonese as a first language use he and she interchangeably when speaking English, because the spoken word for he and she is the same (even though it is different when written down). Many of them speak an otherwise near native level of English and have British / US / Australian accents, so you might not realise that English isn’t their first language.

I wonder if anyone fired for using English incorrectly in this way could succeed in an unfair dismissal case.

@yourhairiswinterfire

The thing that's irking me is...I have no issue whatsoever with genuine trans people who suffer with dysphoria. I'd always do my best to refer to the them as he/she, but I am only human and I'd hope they'd be understanding if I made an honest mistake. I'd never set out to deliberately upset someone.

But the definition of trans has been hijacked. The definition is basically 'anyone who wants to be trans is trans', including drag queens, fetishists, cross dressers, attention seekers etc. We're basically going to be forced to play along with someone's fetish, and I want no fucking part in that. The majority of us don't go to work to help someone 'get off'.

I think it was a big mistake making trans an umbrella term. It's not fair on genuine transmen and women (or transsexuals), nor on us who are going to have to play along with it.

Drag queens fetishists and attention seekers are not covered by trans. But never let the truth get in the way of a good echo chamber shout on mn.

According to Stonewall’s vast definition almost everyone is. Cross dressers are, for example.

Definition so people can judge for themselves

Drag queens fetishists and attention seekers are not covered by trans.

Are you suggesting that males with AGP aren't really trans? Since this is the reason for transition for most late transitioning males, who are the people who are largely responsible for 'trans' becoming so prominent in recent years, that's quite a statement from you.

I do agree with you that such fetishists shouldn't be put in the same category as vulnerable children and young people who are suffering confusion about the idea that they should have or choose a gender and end up making irreversible changes to their bodies as a result.

Drag queens fetishists and attention seekers are not covered by trans. But never let the truth get in the way of a good echo chamber shout on mn.

Shame on you for being such an awful trans ally. Do better.

www.teni.ie/resources/transvestite-and-crossdressing/

The Transgender Equality Network Ireland says the following

Transvestites ‘dress’ for numerous reasons. Some feel the strong need to express femininity while others might crossdress for artistic expression or erotic enjoyment. However, most people who crossdress generally have no intention of changing their bodies through hormones or surgeries. TENI strives to provide a safe and supportive environment for transvestites (TVs) and their partners as these experiences are part of the trans umbrella.

My DD has a colleague who sometimes identifies as male and sometimes female. This changes all the time, often repeatedly during the day. They go absolutely nuts if someone uses the wrong pronouns and seems to expect others to just know how they identify from one minute to the next.

It does my head in that TRAs have the freedom to be far more transphobic than the gender critical bunch. Especially since gender critical "transphobia" is used as a justification for very harsh "retaliatory" attacks. The hypocrisy and manipulation of this is breath-taking.

How embarrassing. Fancy being so self righteous about a cause and calling other people bullies without even bothering to educate yourself about the very thing you are supporting.

I worked with a man who was a bit... a lot... creepy.

He used to come to my bank of desks and basically letch at one of my staff. He must’ve been on his 40s.

He commented about visiting prostitutes (oh I’m detail) and talk about his lovely daughters (it sounded very seedy) and he generally creeped out the female members of staff (early 20s). I used to tell him to go away and leave her alone.

He was hauled up before HR a few times because of inappropriate behaviour and making female members of staff feel uneasy and creeps out. Nothing ever happened to him.

But hey, these are the days, eh people?

These people (on here) who say "deliberately misgendering/dead naming someone is bullying.."

A question:

How would you go about showing that it was deliberate?

I don't have too much of a problem with using she, as that word is not based on biology. It's a feminine pronoun, not a female pronoun. If a ship can be a she, I guess a man can, although it could obviously cause confusion.

I wouldn't call him a woman though, because woman is based on biology.

Drag queens fetishists and attention seekers are not covered by trans. But never let the truth get in the way of a good echo chamber shout on mn.

The policy for the particular employer referred to in the OP very much includes attention seekers. It gives a long list of examples, including gems like crossdresser, two-spirit, gender-fluid and neutrois, before referring readers to Stonewall for an even more exhaustive list.

Gender-fluid is particularly troublesome in the context of this policy because how is someone to know where that fluidity sits at any given time?

Hang on - I'm a teacher, female, & I frequently get called 'sir' (or indeed 'mum') by absent minded students. Am I now entitled to start shouting 'IT'S MA'AM!' & generally going full Hulk smash, then? That could be fun.

Come to that, my housekeeper, whose first language is not English, quite often comes out with sentences like: 'Your friend Miss Bicky I feed him cat because he sick' & I generally only worry about whether it's Victoria, Rebecca - or one of their cats, for that matter - who is ill.

Clearly I should be taking her to task for moggy misgendering. Although, to be fair, I'm basing my TERFy assumptions about Vicky's cat on the fact that she recently had kittens. She might well identify as a trans tomcat for all I know.

It's all just such...total bollocks.

Slightly off topics, but many years ago, a colleague converted to Islam and changed his name from Dave to Mohammed. He won an employment tribunal against the company for his co-workers not calling him his new name. Everyone who knew him liked him, and attempted to call him his new name, but we had known him for years as Dave, and often just forgot. It caused a lot of angst and eventually everyone just got to the point if not addressing him at all for fear of offence, it was awful.