Use pronouns or face dismissal

[MrsSlocombesPussy]

Saw this on Twitter

twitter.com/cupwomenspledge/status/1300406897166766080?s=21

"During the period when there was no government in Northern Ireland, the civil service altered its rule book to say that all workers must use whatever words transgender people want, or face disciplinary action – and possible dismissal."

Bullying is bullying.

I know it’s been said many times before, but the vast majority of times gendered pronouns are used it is in the third person, usually in the absence of the person or in writing.

So imagining I had to refer to a colleague in an email... they sound male on the phone, called Bob, I need to consult some kind of wall chart or try to retrieve an email from them to check their pronouns so I don’t misgender them in a passing reference in an email to someone else... who then catches me out and reports back to the person or to management... because otherwise how would they know? Is the next step to extend this to clients or members of the public... will literally everyone have to wear a badge like in Asda, where does it end?

I do think though the miss/Mrs/ms thing has always been a bit of an awkward one, especially as it’s generally considered more polite to call someone Ms Surname rather than by first name, especially if a client/meeting for the first time and they haven’t invited you to use a first name. Whatever you say, you’re often corrected, even trying to use a neutral Ms. “It’s MISS/professor/captain/reverend actually”

In general, most people seem to take these errors in good faith and humour, but I do worry the gender pronoun thing is a new layer of pressure to censor your language out of normal speech patterns you have used all of your life, to avoid offence that might cost your job. How many times have there been articles in the guardian/bbc even where there have been pronoun slip-ups throughout the article?

@NiceGerbil

Well it's courtesy to refer to someone how they want to be referred to, to their face. I imagine bullying could happen.

The difficult bit is remembering / having to look up everyone's pronouns when speaking about them. In a large org that will waste a lot of time.

Is there anything in the doc to separate out bullying from other things?

There was a case a few years ago when all this started of a teenage lad in school in Canada that told them he wanted to be referred to as "Your Majesty" That put the cat amongst the pigeons.

It feels like bullying to force me to reference Karen White as "she"

Women are compelled to refer to a male sex offender as 'she', under threat of losing their job? Yes, that's bullying.

A woman in court is compelled to refer to the male who attacked her as 'she', under threat of contempt of court. Yes, that's bullying. Gaslighting, coercion and bullying.

Would we call that institutional bullying? Is there a term for that?

But never let the truth get in the way of a good echo chamber shout on mn.

That backfired, didn't it?

Little tip: gaslighting doesn't work when there's solid evidence in writing, that most of us have seen. You're welcome.

@namechanger3108

Namechanged as a bit of a lurker but have seen the consequences of being outed. I recently joined NI Civil Service, that is independent of the Civil Service in the rest of the UK and there are indeed about 23,000 civil servants.

I've only joined in the last few months and so still in probation so afraid to ask too many questions. I haven't read it since first joining but the guidance is very much of you make a mistake and apologise and move on. But consistently using the wrong name/ pronouns may result in disciplinary action. It also states that the person transitioning may use the facilities with their new gender. It did reference stonewall so I think that is where it has come from. But the law is different here, the GRA applies but the equality act 2010 does not. There is a NI specific piece of legislation from 1976 which covers equality and I'm still trying to figure out if the sex based exemptions apply.

So in short I think the same thing as has been seen in other government guidance has happened in that an over reliance on an external organisations has happened.

This.

Drag queens fetishists and attention seekers are not covered by trans.

Ugh, trying to erase trans people and denying their existence. Literal violence right there.

I’m another that has been called Mum and Sir in school. It was when I started getting addressed as Nan I decided to retire.

On another pronoun thread it has been pointed out that there are loads to choose from. I intend to use none and someone else whatever. Or indeed someone.

Pronouns I find tough- I so rarely use them. I use the persons name- I don't need to call you they or them- I'll call you bob or Jane to your face, and similarly to colleagues. I find the pronoun wank largely unecessary.

But it would get a bit clunky, David emailed earlier, to book the afternoon off to attend David’s regular appointment regarding David’s work related Injury. David said David would submit David’s doctors note to David’s manager by the end of the week.

@PumbaasCucumbas

But it would get a bit clunky, David emailed earlier, to book the afternoon off to attend David’s regular appointment regarding David’s work related Injury. David said David would submit David’s doctors note to David’s manager by the end of the week.

‘David emailed earlier to book the afternoon off to attend a regular appointment regarding a work related injury. David will submit a doctor’s note to ‘managers name’ by the end of the week.’

Easier than using block/blocker/blockim/blockself.

gender.wikia.org/wiki/Tetrisgender

1984 Orwellian nightmare?

The thought police are coming to chop off our heads.

It gets extremely clunky. But that's what happens when someone insists that you fuck about with your language to try and create a perception for their benefit that you don't actually hold, and you're trying to find a polite middle way.

eventually everyone just got to the point if not addressing him at all for fear of offence, it was awful

This is exactly what's happened in my workplace. Someone is now under the trans umbrella and we just never mention them at all. Its safer to never mention a name or pronoun or even email them, for fear of getting it wrong and being hauled up.
Good way to get out of doing any work. Make everyone too scared to send you anything to do. Even outside work we dont mention them, fear it'll get back to them and they will throw a hissy fit.

@namechanger3108

Namechanged as a bit of a lurker but have seen the consequences of being outed. I recently joined NI Civil Service, that is independent of the Civil Service in the rest of the UK and there are indeed about 23,000 civil servants.

I've only joined in the last few months and so still in probation so afraid to ask too many questions. I haven't read it since first joining but the guidance is very much of you make a mistake and apologise and move on. But consistently using the wrong name/ pronouns may result in disciplinary action. It also states that the person transitioning may use the facilities with their new gender. It did reference stonewall so I think that is where it has come from. But the law is different here, the GRA applies but the equality act 2010 does not. There is a NI specific piece of legislation from 1976 which covers equality and I'm still trying to figure out if the sex based exemptions apply.

So in short I think the same thing as has been seen in other government guidance has happened in that an over reliance on an external organisations has happened.

While we got the (GB only) Race Relations Act 1976, dealing, obviously, with racial discrimination, you got the (NI only) Fair Employment Act, (if I remember the title correctly), which dealt with religious and political discrimination and set up an equality body, now the (NI only) Equality Commission.

We also had the (GB only) Sex Discrimination Act 1975 which NI incorporated into its law by the Sex Discrimination (NI) Order 1976, which was subsequently updated several times, to comply with the EU Equality Directive and to add in provisions or exemptions relating to matters such as sexual orientation, civil partnerships and gender reassignment. So yes, they do apply and it's all laid out here to see www.legislation.gov.uk/nisi/1976/1042/contents

@Abitofalark oh thank you, will take a read over it all and get comfortable discussing the legislation. The equality commission are pushing for a more up to date equality act similar to GB but things move slowly here, especially when the local government don't sit for 3 years!!

@JoleneExotic

1984 Orwellian nightmare?

The thought police are coming to chop off our heads.

With a generous side of Brave New World.

You're a brave woman as it won't be the easiest read because of the constant referring back to numbered sections and clauses in other legislation. Incidentally that 1976 Act (Fair Employment) was of the UK Parliament, another echo of government not sitting, as you mentioned. It would have been direct rule at the time. And that body it set up was called the Fair Employment Agency. It was supposed to get employers on board for equal opportunities and publish a register of the ones who'd signed up. The practice may have been wanting, though. The present Commission seems to be very pushy, with ever more demands. Unfortunate from every point of view to have had another long spell without government.

Gender identity is not a protected characteristic, sex is. With changes to toilets and this many employers are creating a hostile work environment for women and I do think it will come back to bite them.

Problem is most of the public and charity sector have been Stonewalled. Also many don’t give a shot because it’s not their money if a claim happens.

The private sector tend to be a bit more commercial when they realise misrepresenting the Equality Act can have financial costs.

I do not believe workplaces are changing to gender rather than sex because of squeamishness about the terminology. It is deliberately orchestrated by Stonewall, Diversity Role Models et al.

The fact that we are at this point even without self ID makes me fearful for the future. The TRAs demands will be more and more.

The second version is better written than the first version with pronouns would be.

Drag queens fetishists and attention seekers are not covered by trans. But never let the truth get in the way of a good echo chamber shout on mn.

In your own echo chamber do you pride yourselves on not bothering to get your facts straight? You're wrong.

I know we live in an age of selecting your chosen facts and just carrying on as if the ones you don't like don't exist, but for pete's sake....

Stonewall have this in black and white. Stonewall. Go and check with Stonewall.

@BewaretheIckabog

Gender identity is not a protected characteristic, sex is. With changes to toilets and this many employers are creating a hostile work environment for women and I do think it will come back to bite them.

Problem is most of the public and charity sector have been Stonewalled. Also many don’t give a shot because it’s not their money if a claim happens.

The private sector tend to be a bit more commercial when they realise misrepresenting the Equality Act can have financial costs.

I do not believe workplaces are changing to gender rather than sex because of squeamishness about the terminology. It is deliberately orchestrated by Stonewall, Diversity Role Models et al.

The fact that we are at this point even without self ID makes me fearful for the future. The TRAs demands will be more and more.

That's my view too. I think there is an element of relying on the name and thinking that using Stonewall brings additional credibility. This is compounded by the fact that the vast majority of people will not dig down into the detail unless something directly impacts them. So the people implementing these policies will take outside opinion as fact. Although I would have thought running any new policy by your internal solicitor for compliance with the law would be a given.