Nigella Lawson - another disappointment

[Kit19]

Any celebrity who thinks we should all just be kiiiiinddd

Good point about trans men - if you had to play as your biological sex, like people like to say on here, surely trans men would have an advantage over women?!

That point has already been discussed, Quaagars.

No wonder we get accused of repetition.

Third category. Ok. Also make men’s non contact category open category (some sports do this) so no one has to declare sex when safety is not an issue.

I think Red that you might find that your third category is considered phobic as it is ‘othering’ to some people though.

Yes Quaagers. It has been mentioned more than once that transmen may have a testosterone advantage.

I would prefer to see separate transwomen and transmen categories

I think it might demonstrate why SOME Mixed sex sports Are a bad idea if it was transmen and transwomen together

So I think we’ve solved it. In sports we have men, women, trans men and trans women. The men’s category should be open to everyone though.

@RedtreesRedtrees

So I think we’ve solved it. In sports we have men, women, trans men and trans women. The men’s category should be open to everyone though.

Seems good to me

@RedtreesRedtrees

We sure have come a long way from Nigella Lawson.

Unfortunately. I love JKR but have not read the HP books except the first one, when my daughter was ten, decades ago. I don't come to MN to have a book discussion! Hopefully the discussion is back on track by the time this posts -- i'm halfway through the thread now... Was it Redtrees who derailed?

@Lamahaha no

I'm coming to this late and apologies for what I've missed as I've skipped a lot of the thread. I'm really just responding to the sports thing. Chris Froome was given quite a lot of heat just a few years ago for his use of inhaled steriods for asthma treatment - the authorities believed he would have been at an advantage against his competitors for using medication that allowed him to breathe unimpeded. The exact same authorities allow Rachel McKinnon to compete in women's cycling events, despite Rachel having been through male puberty and being significantly taller, larger and heavier than every single female competitor Rachel goes up against. Rachel's past doping wasn't held against Rachel. If Rachel is a woman and has always considered herself a woman (which I believe is the case) then the testosterone Rachel took for many years, even though it was naturally produced, surely constitutes doping and should therefore prevent Rachel from honest competition. No? It just seems that nothing, absolutely nothing, gets in the way of what the trans wants.

Oops I've derailed the thread.

Nigella - I expect, having had rather an awful experience with at least one, if not both, husbands, she's rather on the side of whomever the victim is - or rather, who plays the victim best. Soft hearts are taken advantage of, and she has children who are the right age to believe all the non-binary stuff and tell her she's cruel and causing suicides galore if she doesn't cede the female world to males.

Rufus

Sorry
Book....
Gosh that first post probably sounded really stalkerish

Haha, not at all, I was just playing

Good point about trans men - if you had to play as your biological sex, like people like to say on here, surely trans men would have an advantage over women?!

Transwomen should play as their biological sex because of the natural advantage they have had with puberty. Unfortunately, their issue is with nature, it's not anyone's fault. Not their own, not ours, it's just the way of the world.

Transmen who haven't taken testosterone would be able to play with their biological sex (women) because they would still be equals. If they have taken testosterone, they'd be considered dopers in the women's category, so they can't. Doping has always been forbidden, we can't start bending the rules, because where will that end? If that person can cheat, why can't anyone else?

It comes down to fairness and safety, it should never, ever be about feelings.

I don't know why this is so hard for people to get their head around?

@yourhairiswinterfire

Good point about trans men - if you had to play as your biological sex, like people like to say on here, surely trans men would have an advantage over women?!

Transwomen should play as their biological sex because of the natural advantage they have had with puberty. Unfortunately, their issue is with nature, it's not anyone's fault. Not their own, not ours, it's just the way of the world.

Transmen who haven't taken testosterone would be able to play with their biological sex (women) because they would still be equals. If they have taken testosterone, they'd be considered dopers in the women's category, so they can't. Doping has always been forbidden, we can't start bending the rules, because where will that end? If that person can cheat, why can't anyone else?

It comes down to fairness and safety, it should never, ever be about feelings.

I don't know why this is so hard for people to get their head around?

This

This

And again

(Even though yourhairiswinterfire is a dreadful tease 😩)

😀

It comes down, as it always does, to the right of the individual to wave their arms around any way they like, ends at someone else's nose.

Feelings and validation do not equal more than other people's needs, rights, equality, safety. There are boundaries as to how far validating someone's chosen identity can go, before the reality we're not talking about begins to trample other people. In a way incompatible with laws, rules, equality and inclusion, and it's people defending the boundary of that incompatibility and saying that other people matter too that is regarded as 'bigotry' and 'unkindness'.

When in fact the bigotry is the inability to value or weigh the needs of others outside of the TRA focus of interest, and unkindness towards those outsiders is rampant.

Michelle, if only real life was that simple.

@RedtreesRedtrees the Paralympic Games are designed to ensure relative level of disability is taken into account. Essentially It’s not just all disabled people lumped in together but various categories to ensure athletes compete with others of a similar ability.

Perhaps something similar could be created for the trans community.

Great idea @GemmeFatale the Trans Games.

@RedtreesRedtrees

Michelle, if only real life was that simple.

I can't see how this relates to what Michelle said. Can you explain what you mean?

There are multiple fair and safe options for trans inclusion in sport:

If participation in competitive sport is a must-have, then we could Introduce an open category to replace the men’s category. This can accommodate: men (the old fashioned xy kind), transwomen, transmen who are using testosterone, and people with disorders of sexual development that allow their bodies to utilise testosterone. The women’s category is open to: women (the old fashioned xx kind), transmen not using testosterone, and people with disorders of sexual development that don’t allow their bodies to utilise testosterone.

Other alternatives are:

• play one of the sports that don’t sex segregate- equestrianism, motor racing, sailing.

• play mixed sex doubles or team sports - touch rugby, tag rugby, tennis, badminton.

• compete in sports where all athletes compete together at the same time over the same course and the only place your sex matters is in the results table at the end - running, triathlon, road cycling, long distance swimming

• Take part in non competitive sporting activity - run, cycle, swim, rollerblade, ski, kayak, orienteer.

It’s simply ridiculous to frame this debate as “trans people are excluded from sport”, as happened further up the thread.

Not sure that Nigella is much of a sportswoman, so this thread really has wandered like a lost sheep (maybe it should take up orienteering)

@LittleBearPad

For someone intelligent she doesn’t seem to have thought very deeply.

It's very easy to conflate intelligence with class.

I've seen nothing to suggest she's particularly intelligent. She may have attended Oxford but she has also had every head start in life and inherited a title.

@RedtreesRedtrees

Thanks *@Sexnotgender* so just to be clear a trans woman competes with men. A few GC posters above have advocated a third space for changing rooms, toilets etc. But I’m wondering how that translates onto the pitch.

Of course. Males compete with males and females compete with females.

@Sexnotgender thanks for confirming. So trans men compete with women.

[quote RedtreesRedtrees]@Sexnotgender thanks for confirming. So trans men compete with women.[/quote]
I'm happy with this if they haven't taken any testosterone.
So you agree with us that transmen are not men and transwomen are not women?