Nigella Lawson - another disappointment

[Kit19]

Any celebrity who thinks we should all just be kiiiiinddd

People make many life-altering decisions which change participation in some activities. If gender “transition” is a priority, then that might preclude some forms of team or competitive sport.

The fact that decisions have consequences is something adults know and accept. There are many individual physical activities and mixed-sex sports available - but an honest person would not choose cheating, so as to have their decision and no consequence.

@DancelikeEmmaGoldman

People make many life-altering decisions which change participation in some activities. If gender “transition” is a priority, then that might preclude some forms of team or competitive sport.

The fact that decisions have consequences is something adults know and accept. There are many individual physical activities and mixed-sex sports available - but an honest person would not choose cheating, so as to have their decision and no consequence.

Well put

transmen CAN compete with women if they have chosen to not take Testosterone.

The only reason they cannot play is they have had the benefit of testosterone. Which is much of the basis (not all) of the reason to exclude transwomen. Transwomen have had benefits that advantage them because of their exposure to higher levels of testosterone. I believe this starts at birth in the case of males.

Nope I’m talking about both. The suggestion is that trans people must compete according to their sex. So you’re expecting a trans man to play with women. Can you not see why that wouldn’t work on so many levels?!

Most transmen would presumably be excluded from competing with women due to their testosterone levels, in that same way that any woman who had taken testosterone would not be allowed to compete. If they want to compete against men they have that option, but that would be their choice. As others have said, when it comes to competitive sports you do have to decide what takes priority - that is true of lots of aspects of competitive sport.

Obviously the same is not true the other way around - even if a transwoman reduced their testosterone to an acceptable level, the fact that they had been through a male puberty would mean advantages in height, hand span, bone density and strength that would still be present.

So you’re expecting a trans man to play with women. Can you not see why that wouldn’t work on so many levels?!

So, explain why a woman who has taken testosterone (a trans man) can't play sport with women?

People make many life-altering decisions which change participation in some activities.

And there are athletes who have to forgo treatment (or even just forgo the most effective treatment) for a condition if it means that they might cross the performance enhancing drug rules.

So you’re expecting a trans man to play with women. Can you not see why that wouldn’t work on so many levels?!

I can. It would not be right for a transman on testosterone to compete with women, as it would confer on the transman an unfair advantage over the women.

However, competing against men and tranwomen would be unsafe for the transman in contact sports and they would be unlikely to match the speed and strength of biological males in other sports.

It's almost as though transmen cannot identify out of their sex class.

The best that they could hope for is to participate in mixed sex sports or in a transman category.

@DancelikeEmmaGoldman

People make many life-altering decisions which change participation in some activities. If gender “transition” is a priority, then that might preclude some forms of team or competitive sport.

The fact that decisions have consequences is something adults know and accept. There are many individual physical activities and mixed-sex sports available - but an honest person would not choose cheating, so as to have their decision and no consequence.

Yes!

maybe think for a moment how a trans man would feel having to compete in a team of women.

They’d have a better chance of not sustaining a life changing head injury so that’s one thing

maybe think for a moment how a trans man would feel having to compete in a team of women.

A trans man who has taken testosterone wouldn't be allowed to compete in a team of women.

Think for a moment how a woman would feel having to compete against males.

maybe think for a moment how a trans man would feel having to compete in a team of women.

Ah, I can see the problem here. Women who are concerned about fairness and safety in sport are considering objective physical reality.

You are going by feelings. I feel therefore I am.

Until we're both talking about the same thing this cannot be resolved.

@RedtreesRedtrees

maybe think for a moment how a trans man would feel having to compete in a team of women.

if they are not denying their biological reality of being female, and they have not had testosterone treatment, if they were not allowed to play in the male category due to safety, then yes, let’s ask them?

Even World Rugby will introduce the requirement of them needing to waive indemnity to play. They will need to know full well the repercussions of playing in male teams (including, if you listen to the male players, that they really don’t want to tone down their game play to accommodate a female body’s injury risk.

Or are you focusing on feelings there?

And if so, remember athletes make decisions all the time about treatments and how that effects their ability to still compete. How is this different in your opinion? Feelings?

X post testing

Testing, it would be easiest if you just stated your views: a trans man should compete with (a) men (b) women or (c) a new trans category.

Sorry I cocked up the c+p, I never claimed to be infallible ;-)

However I think the punt I was making still clearly stands.

Yes, it's a complex and difficult issue, I think we all agree on that.

However I wanted to check my understanding of your pov, Redtrees:

A group comprising 51% of the population should be put at risk of injury or death, or at the very least not being able to compete on a level playing field, to spare the feelings of a group comprising

cruncher

Don’t worry, it didn’t qualify as copy pasta.

maybe think for a moment how a trans man would feel having to compete in a team of women.

I can imagine that. It must be very distressing to 'know' that you are a man and to be told that you cannot compete as one.

I can have compassion and sympathy for individuals without believing that rules must be changed in sport. It is about what is good for everyone as a whole, not for individuals suffering from gender dysphoria.

Can you not understand that it is possible to hold GC views without hating all transpeople?

@yourhairiswinterfire

I have just got where you name is from 😀

Do you mean the book It is from or do you recognise it from another forum? 👀

I don't use this username elsewhere, if it's the latter. I'm aware that sounds like a defensive panic, but it's true Guv, I swear it.

Sorry

Book....

Gosh that first post probably sounded really stalkerish

It’s baffling isn’t it Edge. I just can’t understand why people think a GC position is transphobic.

It’s baffling isn’t it Edge. I just can’t understand why people think a GC position is transphobic.

The GC position is that male-bodied people should not compete against female-bodied people in sports, as this would put the female-bodied people at a disadvantage and possibly endanger their safety.

I don't know why some people might consider this position to be transphobic. Do you know why some people think this, Redtrees? If so, maybe you could help me understand?

Still no solution Red. Just more shaming of women standing up to retain the rights for females.

Since you are so well versed and well read, please link us up to the studies that prove there is no safety or fairness issue.

Maybe you have one we have not read. We are always keen to discover more.

Testing, it would be easiest if you just stated your views:

Well I was asking questions to clarify what you meant.

So testing what is the answer?! I’m with the third category of trans sports.

So testing what is the answer?! I’m with the third category of trans sports.

Personally, I'd be happy with that - it would be up to the sporting bodies to define 'trans', though, and I would prefer to see separate transwomen and transmen categories.