Nigella Lawson - another disappointment

[Kit19]

Any celebrity who thinks we should all just be kiiiiinddd

@PumbaasCucumbas do trans men compete with us or with men? Presumably with us if it’s sex based.

So Red, is your position on sports that the needs of the few outweigh the needs of the many, and that women and their sport are just acceptable collateral damage?

Or have I misunderstood?

It is not the lesser of 2evils to try and physically transition a child. It is saying that there is something wrong with them , it is pretending that it is possible to be born in the wrong body.

Children ( speaking from first hand experience) need support to accept their body and feel free of arbitrary restrictions , not to be told they are actually misformed , not to be medicalised for life, not to be trained to talk about suicidal thoughts as a wand of manipulation

Hum I was going to say means , but wand is I think better

[quote RedtreesRedtrees]@SoManyActivities thanks for the choke on my girl dick quote. I’m almost at buzzword bingo and it’s only 9:15[/quote]
You're very welcome. I have other choice quotes from 'the most vulnerable and oppressed' directed at JKR and others if you need them for your bingo card

Danielle if you don't think I'm a woman you can suck my dick Muscato?

No, not excluded, I think most sports accept trans men in male sports provided they are prepared to accept the increased risk TO THEMSELVES and that it gives them no competitive advantage.

Transwomen could compete in male/open categories. But the physical advantage makes it unfair and unsafe for them To compete with women as it increases the risk to EVERYONE ELSE on the pitch and has the potential to destroy opportunities for women to compete in sports at all levels.

For example, if one male tennis player in the top 200 has transitioned to the women’s game, even serena (Arguably the greatest tennis player of all time) may never have won a grand slam.

@RedtreesRedtrees

So trans people are effectively excluded from sports.

What is your solution to males wanting to compete in women's categories? Do you have any suggestions?

somanyactivities is right; when some anonymous, inadequate man on twatter tells you to suck his little wotsit and then the next day the creep could be in the changing room with you!

Ew!

If serena identified as male she wouldn’t even qualify in the men’s game

No it's women who get excluded

Trans men will find they are significantly disadvantaged in the male class , yet their additional testosterone will exclude them from the female class , women will be significantly disadvantaged in the female class

Yes it is fair to consider how to classify for sport people who are on medication , male And female

It is not fair to trample over women in an effort to be fair to men

I was simply curious as to how the third space solution could be applied to sports. I think the answer is that it can’t so trans people will be excluded. I can’t see an alternative.

Wouldn't a woman taking testosterone, for whatever reason, fail a doping test? As this confers an actual physical advantage, which is the point of segregation in sports.

Otherwise how do we determine which women get to use testosterone?

It is a difficult question.

I still feel the needs of the many must outweigh the needs of the few, where there is a direct conflict. That's how public policy usually works. I don't see why this one issue needs separate treatment (that's not me being 'unkind' it's a genuine again that I've yet to hear answered logically).

There could be a women's sport category and an open category.

There could be a transwomen category and a transmen category.

Redtrees, what is your solution? What is your solution to the girls in Connecticut who are losing out on career opportunities and scholarships to transgirls?

Those that are not on medication can compete in their normal sex based class

Or another class can be created for them ... it's not that hard to see that as an option

My personal view is that many children who are being put on a lifetime of medication and hormones will be unlikely in future to be able to compete at the top level in the Olympics.

I just can't see how a cocktail of puberty blockers, hormones and surgery will do their health any favours at all. However, male-bodied people in women's sport is a problem at the moment (see Veronica Ivy/Rachel McKinnon).

But sports is a different issue in so far as it is choice driven, I don’t do a lot of sports as Im not very coordinated, I feel the cold and don’t like smelly changing rooms, no one is forcing me to do it.

But if I’m sectioned onto a psychiatric ward I have no choice in that and rely entirely on other people’s safeguarding and policy to keep me safe.

Unfortunately there are already a lot of barriers to women’s participation in sports and the worry about being “folded like a deckchair” - one for your bingo card, you’re welcome - knowing there’s no chance of getting near a podium if certain athletes participate, that qualification times have been skewed by trans athletes or having to undress in front of intact male bodies in the changing rooms and showers, is likely to alienate a new generation of female athletes who may decide all the hours of training just aren’t worth it if it isn’t a level playing field any more. When you think how hot the ioc are on doping and fairness in sport, it’s crazy that this can happen.

@RedtreesRedtrees

I was simply curious as to how the third space solution could be applied to sports. I think the answer is that it can’t so trans people will be excluded. I can’t see an alternative.

And if transwomen are allowed to compete in women's sports then women are excluded.

Is that ok?

Redtrees, what is your solution? What is your solution to the girls in Connecticut who are losing out on career opportunities and scholarships to transgirls?

Redtrees solution is clearly that those girls just need to suck it up and give up their places, because ultimately what males want to do takes precedent. If they get excluded from competing at top level their sports, well that's just the price women have to pay to ensure that men get to do what they want.

Which is why I can’t see an alternative 🤦‍♀️

So trans people are effectively excluded from sports.

No. Some sports aren't segregated by sex because sex doesn't impact on performance, or because they are played for fun, not competition, and because mixed sex competition is safe.

Also, when you say 'trans people are effectively excluded from sports' you are clearly only talking about trans women being prevented from competing in the female category.

However, you are never going to get around the problem that the female category exists because of physical differences between men and women that can't be reduced by taking hormones.

Life is tough. There is no Women's Tour de France, but for all I know some of the male bodied athletes currently competing are non-binary or identify as female.

But why can't transpeople have their own category? Then noone is excluded.

Redtrees so for the avoidance of doubt, this IS your position?

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Today 09:17RedtreesRedtrees

So trans people are effectively excluded from sports.

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Today 09:20RedtreesRedtrees

@PumbaasCucumbasdo trans men compete with us or with men? Presumably with us if it’s sex based.

Bookmark

Today 09:20crunchermuncher

SoRed, is your position on sports that the needs of the few outweigh the needs of the many, and that women and their sport are just acceptable collateral damage?

Or have I misunderstood?

Bookmark

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Today 09:21midgebabe

It is not the lesser of 2evils to try and physically transition a child. It is saying that there is something wrong with them , it is pretending that it is possible to be born in the wrong body.

Children ( speaking from first hand experience) need support to accept their body and feel free of arbitrary restrictions , not to be told they are actually misformed , not to be medicalised for life, not to be trained to talk about suicidal thoughts as a wand of manipulation

Hum I was going to say means , but wand is I think better

Bookmark

Today 09:22SoManyActivities

RedtreesRedtrees

*@SoManyActivities*thanks for the choke on my girl dick quote. I’m almost at buzzword bingo and it’s only 9:15

You're very welcome. I have other choice quotes from 'the most vulnerable and oppressed' directed at JKR and others if you need them for your bingo card

Danielleif you don't think I'm a woman you can suck my dickMuscato?

Bookmark

Today 09:24PumbaasCucumbas

No, not excluded, I think most sports accept trans men in male sports provided they are prepared to accept the increased risk TO THEMSELVES and that it gives them no competitive advantage.

Transwomen could compete in male/open categories. But the physical advantage makes it unfair and unsafe for them To compete with women as it increases the risk to EVERYONE ELSE on the pitch and has the potential to destroy opportunities for women to compete in sports at all levels.

For example, if one male tennis player in the top 200 has transitioned to the women’s game, even serena (Arguably the greatest tennis player of all time) may never have won a grand slam.

Bookmark

Today 09:24SoManyActivities

RedtreesRedtrees

So trans people are effectively excluded from sports.

What is your solution to males wanting to compete in women's categories? Do you have any suggestions?

Bookmark

Today 09:24buttonhole

somanyactivitiesis right; when someanonymous, inadequate man on twatter tells you to suck his little wotsit and then the next day the creep could be in the changing room with you!

Ew!

Bookmark

Today 09:25PumbaasCucumbas

If serena identified as male she wouldn’t even qualify in the men’s game

Bookmark

Today 09:25midgebabe

No it's women who get excluded

Trans men will find they are significantly disadvantaged in the male class , yet their additional testosterone will exclude them from the female class , women will be significantly disadvantaged in the female class

Yes it is fair to consider how to classify for sport people who are on medication , male And female

It is not fair to trample over women in an effort to be fair to men

Bookmark

Today 09:25RedtreesRedtrees

I was simply curious as to how the third space solution could be applied to sports. I think the answer is that it can’t so trans people will be excluded. I can’t see an alternative.

Bookmark

Today 09:26crunchermuncher

Wouldn't a woman taking testosterone, for whatever reason, fail a doping test? As this confers an actual physical advantage, which is the point of segregation in sports.

Otherwise how do we determine which women get to use testosterone?

It is a difficult question.

I still feel the needs of the many must outweigh the needs of the few, where there is a direct conflict. That's how public policy usually works. I don't see why this one issue needs separate treatment (that's not me being 'unkind' it's a genuine again that I've yet to hear answered logically).

Bookmark

ADVERTISEMENT

Today 09:31EdgeOfACoin

There could be a women's sport category and an open category.

There could be a transwomen category and a transmen category.

Redtrees, what is your solution? What is your solution to the girls in Connecticut who are losing out on career opportunities and scholarships to transgirls?

Bookmark

Today 09:31midgebabe

Those that are not on medication can compete in their normal sex based class

Or another class can be created for them ... it's not that hard to see that as an option

Bookmark

Today 09:36EdgeOfACoin

My personal view is that many children who are being put on a lifetime of medication and hormones will be unlikely in future to beableto compete at the top level in the Olympics.

I just can't see how a cocktail of puberty blockers, hormones and surgery will do their health any favours at all. However, male-bodied people in women's sport is a problem at the moment (see Veronica Ivy/Rachel McKinnon).

Bookmark

Today 09:36PumbaasCucumbas

But sports is a different issue in so far as it is choice driven, I don’t do a lot of sports as Im not very coordinated, I feel the cold and don’t like smelly changing rooms, no one is forcing me to do it.

But if I’m sectioned onto a psychiatric ward I have no choice in that and rely entirely on other people’s safeguarding and policy to keep me safe.

Unfortunately there are already a lot of barriers to women’s participation in sports and the worry about being “folded like a deckchair” - one for your bingo card, you’re welcome - knowing there’s no chance of getting near a podium if certain athletes participate, that qualification times have been skewed by trans athletes or having to undress in front of intact male bodies in the changing rooms and showers, is likely to alienate a new generation of female athletes who may decide all the hours of training just aren’t worth it if it isn’t a level playing field any more. When you think how hot the ioc are on doping and fairness in sport, it’s crazy that this can happen.

Bookmark

Today 09:37tearinyourhand

RedtreesRedtrees

I was simply curious as to how the third space solution could be applied to sports. I think the answer is that it can’t so trans people will be excluded. I can’t see an alternative.

And if transwomen are allowed to compete in women's sports then women are excluded.

Is that ok?

Bookmark

Today 09:38SoManyActivities

Redtrees, what is your solution? What is your solution to the girls in Connecticut who are losing out on career opportunities and scholarships to transgirls?

Redtreessolution is clearly that those girls just need to suck it up and give up their places, because ultimately what males want to do takes precedent. If they get excluded from competing at top level their sports, well that's just the price women have to pay to ensure that men get to do what they want*

Oh shit, sorry Idk what happened there!

“Also, when you say 'trans people are effectively excluded from sports' you are clearly only talking about trans women being prevented from competing in the female category.”

Nope I’m talking about both. The suggestion is that trans people must compete according to their sex. So you’re expecting a trans man to play with women. Can you not see why that wouldn’t work on so many levels?!

@crunchermuncher I applaud you. This thread has a whole discussion about repetition on FWR threads and you’ve literally just copied and pasted whole sections. That has made my day.

Unfortunately life is sometimes unfair, you can’t always square the circle and accommodate everyone in everything. My daughter had to accept fairly young that she wasn’t cut out for elite gymnastics and got demoted in her classes, she does a fun session just for enjoyment. She’d love to be an event rider but we could never afford a horse. There’s no reason that everyone can’t find something to enjoy and challenge themselves and keep fit, but when it comes to contact and competitive sports, internal identity can’t trump physical biology and the advantage/risks that brings. Rules have to exist, whether it’s weight categories in boxing or the manufacture of running blades.

I just don’t understand how an athlete can enjoy the victory of winning a women’s medal when in the male sport they were mediocre at best... isn’t it a bit of a hollow victory