Nigella Lawson - another disappointment

[Kit19]

Any celebrity who thinks we should all just be kiiiiinddd

The fact that it's always said on here that trans women are biologically male and means that they should automatically be not in "women's spaces" says it all.

Precisely. There is no argument. They have the same exclusions as all men.

Ive seen this arguemnt repeated thousands of times,that males are not all bad, so transwomen arent a threat.

So if males are no threat, transwomen can use male spaces and everyones happy.

Except it doesnt work like that, does it. Male women reserve the right to say what is/isnt allowed, because, as males, they are more important than women and its what they want that counts.

Male women reserve the right to say what is/isnt allowed, because, as males, they are more important than women and its what they want that counts.

Yes. Many (the TRA types) sure do like asserting their male dominance. They also don't seem too keen to let go of their male entitlement or privilege either. Funny that.

I can’t believe in this, of all threads, there hasn’t been any recipes.

Shame, I’d like to learn to be more versatile with an avocado.

Just popped back to check what I missed overnight. Nothing. Just endless shadow boxing.

Nope, as in read both "sides", never said anything about getting your knowledge all from the MN FWR boards

But MN FWR is an open forum. There must be TRAs out there who could come to these boards and address each of our points with patience and logic? It would be a good way to win hearts and minds. There are some extremely erudite and articulate posters on FWR. Wouldn't you rather have them on your side?

Also, if Mumsnet is too one-sided, does anyone know of any forum where the GC and non-GC points of view are regularly debated and discussed? A forum where both sides are heard fairly and one side isn't cancelled or shut down?

From what I have read, this is the non-GC argument: yes, some bad things will happen if we allow transwomen into spaces currently segregated by sex. We could prevent this from happening through the introduction of 3rd spaces, which would also protect the safety of transwomen, but the feelings of transpeople are more important than the feelings and safety of women. Yes, some women and girls will be assaulted but the numbers will be very small and that is justified to avoid invalidating the feelings of transwomen. It's just a case of collateral damage.

The transitioning of children may lead to unknown long-term health problems, as well as some known ones (such as osteoporosis and infertility) but this is justified in order to enable these children to grow up to live as the gender they are on the inside. It is the lesser of two evils for a child to undergo extensive 'gender affirmation' surgery than to receive therapy that addresses the root of their gender dysphoria. Such therapy would be considered conversion therapy. Unfortunately some children will transition and then regret it. However, the numbers will be very small and they should have known what they were getting into. It is regrettable that these children will be left with lifelong medical conditions, but it is just a case of collateral damage.

Everyone has a gender identity, but this is impossible to define objectively. It is a general feeling on the inside. It is not possible to point to specific thoughts or behaviours that would identify a certain gender identity. It is definitely not adhering to gender stereotypes, although a young boy who likes playing with dolls is more likely to transition than a boy who likes playing with trucks.

The questions 'what is a woman' and 'what is a man' if such terms do not relate to biological sex are 'gotcha' questions and therefore should not be answered. If it must be answered, it must be answered in the following way: 'a man is anyone who identifies as a man' and 'a woman is anyone who identifes as a woman'.
However, the question 'what does "identifying as a man/woman mean in practice?"' is another gotcha question and must never be answered. Nevertheless, law and policy should be changed to include 'all women', even if the words 'woman' and 'man' cannot be defined.

To me, these arguments seem insane. I can only assume that I have misunderstood them and am inadvertently misrepresenting them. Is there any chance someone can explain what I have got wrong?

They come
See nigella thread
They demonstrate misogyny

Should any of them cone up with an explanation of the meaning of the word woman that captures me, them and my sister I would love to hear it

It is the lesser of two evils for a child to undergo extensive 'gender affirmation' surgery

I'm going to correct myself here and say I know that in this country SRS is forbidden on minors. However, once a child starts on puberty blockers, there is pretty much a 100% chance that the child will continue to transition at 18. Noone knows what effect puberty blockers has on the brain.

In other countries the law is more relaxed regarding SRS and cross-sex hormones before the age of 18.

What would a third space look like in sport @DialSquare? The trans olympics? Or is it best to just exclude them from sport?

@RedtreesRedtrees

What would a third space look like in sport *@DialSquare*? The trans olympics? Or is it best to just exclude them from sport?

Why would they be excluded from sport? They just don’t get to choose the category they compete in!

In the same way Usain Bolt doesn’t compete in the U18s league, males don’t compete in female sports. Sports are segregated by sex and actually the male class is usually open so anyone can compete in it. Fair for everyone. No one excluded from anything.

When Oscar pistorious wanted to participate in the olympics as well as the Paralympics, tje powers that be debated and discussed for months as to whether he should be allowed because his blades might confer an unfair advantage.

Yet men who have an innate undefinable sense of womanhood? Well why not says the IOC

Also I note that no one thinks we should scrap the Paralympics and let people with disabilities compete against people without because everyone realises that with a few vanishingly tiny exceptions they’d lose every single time

Quaagars

No one thinks that all men are a threat. Lots of us are married to men, men who are not a threat. But men as a class are a threat, which is why we don't allow any man, no matter what he has or hasn't done in the past, into women's spaces. It's why my husband isn't allowed into women's spaces, even though he is a great guy.

Transwomen are male, and so are in the high risk class. And so far it seems that no one can give an objective point at which transwomen come out of the high risk class of male and into the low risk class of female.

Unless you are advocating for a system where we do let some males, ones who aren't a threat, into women's spaces? But how do we do that?

And also, if not all males are a threat, then why can't transwomen just use male facilities then?

That other poster is right - this does get repetitive.

@RedtreesRedtrees

What would a third space look like in sport *@DialSquare*? The trans olympics? Or is it best to just exclude them from sport?

Yes, the trans Olympics seems fine to me. Why not? People of broadly the same physical make up competing against each other. What's wrong with that?

Is there any chance someone can explain what I have got wrong?

I don't think you got anything 'wrong', but I can see that sex segregation makes life difficult for some people. This is why there is a conflict between people who need sex segregation to access services and people for whom sex segregation makes access to services difficult. There are ways to resolve that, but first you have to admit that the conflict exists, and that is why we are at an impasse.

Redtrees, I know that the difference between my life and that of my great grandmother, grandmother, mother's is not due to 'girl power', it is due to legislation. That legislation depends on a clear definition of sex. My own concept of my gender identity is irrelevant because I cannot hide my sex and I cannot escape the consequences of having a female body. Even if I took testosterone to masculinise my appearance, it would be because I have a female body.

Personally I don't enter a sex segregated space from one day to the next, but I understand why some women need sex segregated spaces, and I want to protect that right in law. That does not prevent anyone else from providing unisex services.

You can accuse us of 'shadow boxing', but what else can we do if others aren't prepared to seriously confront the difficult issues that need to be discussed? The article linked by NL certainly doesn't engage with real GC arguments.

I also think it's important to stress the privacy aspect. I'm not a believer in a sexist religion that requires the segregation of men and women. I haven't been subject to more than the standard low level of male sexual violence. However when in a vulnerable condition, in hospital say, I do require privacy. Ideally privacy from everyone, but if that isn't achievable, then at least from men.

It's OK for women to say NO, just because we want to, because we have needs and desires. We're real people, not just props.

Or is it best to just exclude them from sport?

How could you suggest such a thing? Where is your humanity?

The use of the dismissive "them" is very telling.

Thanks @Sexnotgender so just to be clear a trans woman competes with men. A few GC posters above have advocated a third space for changing rooms, toilets etc. But I’m wondering how that translates onto the pitch.

I'm not sure that 3rd spaces do translate into a sports equivalent.

However. If that is the case, I still haven't heard a logical case for gender based teams rather than sex, when this will disadvantage and potentially injure and kill one group. Who comprise 51% of the population.

To spare the feelings of a group who make up

Yes, I find it bizarre that women are expected to accept people who write 'Choke on my girl dick you cunt' on Twitter into their spaces, simply because that person says they are a woman! WTF?

No, the sports thing is entirely separate, there’s no 3rd space option there, unless maybe equestrian where the sex of the rider is not the main physical factor in the sport?

@SoManyActivities thanks for the choke on my girl dick quote. I’m almost at buzzword bingo and it’s only 9:15

That's a great post pumbaas. It explains very well what the problem is.

So trans people are effectively excluded from sports.