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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Stonewall Lobby World Rugby

554 replies

SunsetBeetch · 23/08/2020 11:59

Ffs I am so sick of this agenda-heavy lobby group and their war against women's rights!

(Note that they are controlling who can reply to them too.)

“We are asking rugby clubs at all levels of the game to stand with us against a ruling that is exclusionary and that will impact some of the most vulnerable people in the community”.

Join us and
@LgbtiqS
in calling
@WorldRugby
to #TackleTransphobia lgbtiqsportalliance.org.uk/uk-lgbtiq-sport

twitter.com/stonewalluk/status/1296801438211944455?s=20

Stonewall Lobby World Rugby
Stonewall Lobby World Rugby
OP posts:
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8
Winesalot · 25/08/2020 09:18

@ThinEndoftheWedge

With all the misappropriated words I now think the word ‘vulnerable’ is at number 1.
And literally.

And violence.

SerenityNowwwww · 25/08/2020 09:19

I would also worry about what happens to biological women who Id as male - where will they play?

(I know playing rugby isn’t a human right - and people need to make sensible choices for themselves whether they play or not.)

CuriousaboutSamphire · 25/08/2020 09:24

I would also worry about what happens to biological women who Id as male - where will they play? The RFU are curently toying with them playing as men, because they will have added strength due to testosterone etc. They sign a waiver and everyone plays on.

BUT it is constantly under review. One player questionnaire suggest that male players are a bit unhappy, they feel they need to play at less than 100%, but they are going with it to see how it pans out.

That's the thing about rugby, as opposed to cycling, say! It is discussed, trialled, discussed and nothing is out bounds for discussion. Safety is paramount! That gives them the advantage, they are not saying no because TERF! They are saying yes, or no, based on a measurable construct - pain, breakages, concussions etc.

highame · 25/08/2020 09:34

What I find interesting is that if men are not happy about FTM trans people playing, they will make their feelings known and make sure they're acted on pretty quickly. It will be 'no ifs' 'no buts'

Not the same for women. Men will be making the decisions

CuriousaboutSamphire · 25/08/2020 10:17

Not the same for women. Men will be making the decisions To be fair, that happens less and less in rugby! Sorry, I worked with a lot of women palyers, development squads etc. They are getting stronger and more self guided. Men in the RFU value women players, coaches etc and tend not to dismiss them as lesser than or weak men etc.

Women did speak up about the TW players, wel, maybe not all teams, but enough did very quickly. That is why the RFU reversed its previous decision within about 18 months! They allowed TW to play in womens teams, watched what was happening, listened to the way it was discussed and made another decision. All that "fold 'em like a deckchair" twaddle really had the effect we could have wished for. I wasn't the only person to bring it to the attention of some influential women in rugby!

I'm meeting with an ex student, England player later in the month. This is one of the things she wants to discuss. She is gay and had previously been sympathetic to TW players. But has changed her mind having met a few, played against one who infuriated her with his clumsiness and attempt to use his weight and strenght to injure her. Bear in mind she is a professional player, is well capped and was playing in a freindly club match, for fun! She thinks he was actively trying to hurt her because she is who she is - wanted a feather in his cap.

He was removed from the pitch by the ref - as per the rules!

Sexnotgender · 25/08/2020 10:36

She thinks he was actively trying to hurt her because she is who she is - wanted a feather in his cap.

Can’t say I’m surprised to be honest.

MillyMollyFarmer · 25/08/2020 11:27

I think I saw this mentioned already here but this guy is extremely popular with rugby fans, has the most followers on YouTube etc and is a rampant misogynist. he very obviously engages with mean and women differently but his comments on this are truly insane. he was very respectful when Ross Tucker jumped on an earlier thread and explained the science and the consultation process, but still days later is saying that science is false. His first gripe about it was that making 'trans women' play in the male category would mean women having to use the same changing rooms as men. Really. I really urge anyone on YouTube or twitter to try engaging , the more men see him do this the better- even world rugby use him on their channel, he's making money doing this and has a huge platform. I had a discussion on a different rugby channel about this issue, and every single guy inc the channel owner was 100% against male born being allowed in women's rugby and 2 of them were patreons of squidge and very unimpressed.
twitter.com/SquidgeRugby/status/1297518674287501314

MillyMollyFarmer · 25/08/2020 11:33

Here are some links from New Zealand. These are important as NZ Rugby doesn't intend to stop trans women participating in the women's category.

I'd like to see a concerted campaign by women to tackle this, by sending emails and letters to Unions and their sponsors. Starting with NZ Rugby, who do not have the best reputation for looking after women's players as it is. They didn't give them a thought during the lockdown while they were busy doing all they could to get mens tournaments back up and running, and worse, they have a horrible history of allowing men who beat women to play regardless- Sevu Reece is the latest and they have another guy who broke a mans jaw on a public street late last year playing in super rugby and likely the All Blacks too. They are the Union to target and I really hope some of you here join me in doing that.

www.rnz.co.nz/programmes/the-detail/story/2018757712/the-science-of-transgender-women-in-sport

www.stuff.co.nz/sport/300062487/nz-rugby-reviewing-guidelines-as-world-rugby-finds-transathletes-pose-physical-risk-in-womens-game

Nagsnovalballs · 25/08/2020 11:51

I should add to my previous post about what I’ve seen in women’s rugby as a player that I’m an academic and due to my subject and location we have quite a few LGBT students. I have a TW student who is so very conscious of her impact on other people (women especially) that she has social anxiety. She is rather tall and if she played basketball/volleyball/rugby etc would undoubtedly have a massive advantage over natal women... but she doesn’t as she would never treat other women like that. We do not agree on a number of things, but I always think that level of awareness of her impact on others is one of her most endearing qualities. It also separates her from the male socialisation and entitlement seen in those TW who only consider themselves and their desire to dominate female sports.

highame · 25/08/2020 12:37

CuriousaboutSamphire loved your post, very encouraging.

Looked at the links and I'm glad to see that fairness is a word that is linked with safety. Very important these two words don't get separated

Student133 · 25/08/2020 12:59

@CuriousaboutSamphire
Yeah the thing is that in rugby it is common to 'target' players I they are of a particular threat, and so if they are using the trans player to do this, it would end in injury.

MillyMollyFarmer · 25/08/2020 13:10

Student133, yes it is a common strategy and all they'd need to do is get the male player to target the best players or the smallest key players like fly half and you'd really devastate the oppositions chances. Its insane they ever let this happen- remembering that this consultation process comes 10 YEARS after the horse has bolted

MillyMollyFarmer · 25/08/2020 13:15

This was posted today on Rugby Pass, a popular rugby site.

It would be great if we could share this as it has the full summary by Ross Tucker from science of sport and is on a rugby site so even more important.

www.rugbypass.com/news/thats-ideology-not-science-renowned-sports-scientist-steps-in-on-transwomen-in-rugby-debate/

BatShite · 25/08/2020 13:22

and is a rampant misogynist.

This seems to be true of a huge amount of TRA types.

Infact, the very first thing that made me think smething might be up..was another forum I was on. We had a proper MRA poster, regardless of the topic he could swing it to be poor men abused by women, argued ridiculous stuff like there being only 2% of rapes prosecuted clearly means 98% of reports are false..etc etc. Horredous guy. Also pretty racist and homophobic.

Yet, on this one topic, he was sooo 'progressive'. It was a thread about that guy who transitioned and became the 'first woman on the front line'. First time ever I saw MRA guy praising a woman, and telling others that to NOT praise 'her' in this amazing achievement means you hate women..and noone can call themselves a feminist unless they appreciate this glorious news about equality Hmm Very insistent he was to, that this person was indeed a woman and this was a great day for womens rights the world over. The seeds of doubt were sown there tbh, then I found MN.

MillyMollyFarmer · 25/08/2020 13:51

BatShite, oh yes too true. I often find these types to be the.... less desirable men, to both other men and women. the bearded skinny, smelly, boring white guys who nobody really wants. Oh they are full of rage those incels. I have no idea if Squidge is an incel, of course, not calling any specific person a name here.... but it is so curious someone who pretty much exclusively posts about MENS RUGBY and not once posted anything about women missing out on funding, having to scrounge holiday days to get to a World Cup, not being paid, their lockdown postponements not even addressed, their menstrual cycles not considered in training... heck, if you're a Black Ferns fan you can't even buy a supporters jersey! ( this is why I don't buy Adidas ) But suddenly... he enters! To state that making males share changing rooms with other males is discriminatory and is 'the' problem with these changes, while being totally silent on the 30-40% increase in serious injury for women. I mean, does he think we don't notice? He even asked a woman challenging him if she knew what a scrum was and when someone said he didn't know what he was talking about showed a screenshot of some famous rugby person saying how good he was. What a total doofus.

Student133 · 25/08/2020 14:15

Another issue for the women's game, is that it will never be able to grow professionally to the same heights womens football has in recent years, if the game gets swamped by trans players. Its going to put off lots of women, and we crowd out opportunities for any professional contracts or scholarships, as we see in women's gymnastics in the US.

SerenityNowwwww · 25/08/2020 14:39

I wonder why the focus was on rugby - not football or hockey?

MoltenLasagne · 25/08/2020 14:40

Its going to put off lots of women, and we crowd out opportunities for any professional contracts or scholarships, as we see in women's gymnastics in the US.

Its even worse than that though. As you and MillyMolly have discussed, its a common tactic to target the stronger opposition players in rugby which will result in the best female players coming through being deliberately tackled by TW players. It won't even get to professional players retiring through injury, they'll be incapacitated from the game before reaching those standards.

zanahoria · 25/08/2020 14:44

Women's rugby will not grow with trans women players as quite simpy very few people want to watch that sort of thing.

Roswellconspiracy · 25/08/2020 14:44

It won't even get to professional players retiring through injury, they'll be incapacitated from the game before reaching those standards

Who will they play with/against then?

Theres no validation in being the only one there...

Sexnotgender · 25/08/2020 14:52

@zanahoria

Women's rugby will not grow with trans women players as quite simpy very few people want to watch that sort of thing.
Totally. Who in their right mind wants to watch mixed sex full contact rugby 😱
MoltenLasagne · 25/08/2020 14:53

Well exactly no-one will play, women's rugby will die a death, men will yet again say that women have no interest in "rough" sports and we'll tell disbelieving grandchildren about the brief few years back in the early 21st century when women's sports were sex segregated and starting to gain recognition.

Roswellconspiracy · 25/08/2020 14:53

Totally. Who in their right mind wants to watch mixed sex full contact rugby

Half the porn hub subscribers probably.

And the incels

GCAcademic · 25/08/2020 14:55

Totally. Who in their right mind wants to watch mixed sex full contact rugby 😱

People that hate women and want to se them get hurt? Sadly, I suspect there may be an audience.

user1477391263 · 25/08/2020 14:57

I think rugby is concerned that it may become liable in the same way as boxing has, if a lot of bad injuries take place. That may partially explain why they are standing their ground about this.