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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Stonewall Lobby World Rugby

554 replies

SunsetBeetch · 23/08/2020 11:59

Ffs I am so sick of this agenda-heavy lobby group and their war against women's rights!

(Note that they are controlling who can reply to them too.)

“We are asking rugby clubs at all levels of the game to stand with us against a ruling that is exclusionary and that will impact some of the most vulnerable people in the community”.

Join us and
@LgbtiqS
in calling
@WorldRugby
to #TackleTransphobia lgbtiqsportalliance.org.uk/uk-lgbtiq-sport

twitter.com/stonewalluk/status/1296801438211944455?s=20

Stonewall Lobby World Rugby
Stonewall Lobby World Rugby
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8
MillyMollyFarmer · 01/09/2020 14:31

I think world rugby knew what the response of stonewall etc would be so I’m sure they’re not surprised or concerned. Ultimately they won’t get insurance to cover their players if there’s a known significant safety risk to females they’re ignoring. I’d be surprised if they could get sponsors in fact. I saw an Irish study showing a 240%+ increase in concussions in women’s rugby, did Ross Tucker mention that at all?

Winesalot · 01/09/2020 14:36

I saw an Irish study showing a 240%+ increase in concussions in women’s rugby, did Ross Tucker mention that at all?

I have not seen that one. If you remember, what was the cause of the increase please? Did it have a conclusion?

All I have seen on this was the Swansea Uni study which explored why women were more susceptible to head and brain injuries.

MillyMollyFarmer · 01/09/2020 14:45

I haven’t seen the actual study I just saw this last year and remembered it, I don’t think there was a conclusion

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.independent.ie/irish-news/health/huge-increase-in-women-diagnosed-with-concussion-shows-risks-of-playing-rugby-38606914.html

TheMostBeautifulDogInTheWorld · 01/09/2020 15:36

But he did say he hates that his research is being used to call people cheats etc except that’s what they are mate, it’s a form of cheating akin to doping, the impact being the same.

I think the reason that Ross Tucker is scrupulous about not calling TW competing in women's sports "cheats" is because they are not breaking a single one of those sports' rules, which is exactly and precisely the definition of cheating in the formal sense. Tucker is addressing the rules themselves.

I actually think he's completely right to take that line (in relation to sports); the psychology of individual players ("surely on one level at least this TW must know it's cheating?") is not his area of expertise. And if you're presenting yourself as a cold-hard-evidence-based scientist then of course you're not going to go near any criticism of any individual participant.

And I think also that Tucker is more and more of the opinion that male advantage is going to apply to just about all sports (as always, exception is made for those already mixed sex such as equestrian events) and that in just about all sports it is going to be an unfair advantage and that therefore males should not compete. That is, that if women's sports exist, all males regardless of their identity should be excluded.

I'm sure you're right that this extending of his attitudes has been a developing not a from-the-start thing - but I certainly don't have a problem with people changing their minds as they think about it more and as the evidence mounts up!

Winesalot · 01/09/2020 15:49

I certainly don't have a problem with people changing their minds as they think about it more and as the evidence mounts up!

Shows a considered approach that adapts to current provable and repeatable findings. I am all for that....

DillonPanthersTexas · 01/09/2020 16:39

Most rowing clubs in London were founded in the 1870s and bought the land their clubhouses sit on for peanuts at a time when they were surrounded by farmland. Those same riverside clubhouses in putney, Hammersmith, Barnes, Chiswick and Twickenham are worth millions. It is exceptionally hard for a new club to get in on the act as set up costs would be prohibitive. Most clubs were men only until the 60s and 70s when the orthodoxy was challenged by a handful of brave women who finally managed to get get equal status. I woud say that rowing is still seen as a prestigious sport and middle class parents like to push their kids into it for the kudos. Truth is anyone can join most clubs these days and they cost way less then a typical gym membership. There are are elite clubs out there insofar as performance and they will not let you in unless you are a bona-fide 6ft + athlete. A handful of independent schools have their own boat houses but most schools if they so desire end up having access arrangements with their local club.

FuriousAndFrustrated · 01/09/2020 18:47

Does anyone happen to have a link to the tweet/video which shows a woman getting absolutely flattened by a male rugby player when he just stops her (not a full on tackle) as she runs at him?

I'm sure it was linked on Mumsnet somewhere but I'm buggered if I can find it again! I seem to recall the tone of the original tweet was sickeningly gleeful at how she went down like a sack of spuds.

Thanks :-)

WeeBisom · 01/09/2020 19:33

The Guardian now has an article up about a letter signed by 84 academics opposing World Rugby's trans woman ban. It's pretty bizarre. The letter says "there is no evidence that trans women pose a safety risk to others playing the sport", which...er...directly contradicts World Rugby's findings of at least a 20 to 30% increased risk of injuries based on peer reviewed research. So it's not that there's no evidence, it's just that these academics evidently disagree with it.

Hilariously, the letter also scolds World Rugby for excluding "an entire population group" from women's rugby - "people assumed male at birth." Yes, how very shocking and terrible for World Rugby to exclude male people from women's sport. Are they going to complain about the lack of able bodied people in the paralympics next? Oh, and I bet this is going to be the next thing. It's not 'assigned male at birth" it's "assumed' male now...

The article ends with a female rugby player saying that she is confident going up against men(!) and it's not size that matters, or strength, but her 'skill set'. Women apparently need "mental toughness" and then they can face off against men. This is just insulting. Is she really implying that thousands of teen boys can beat the female 100 metre dash record each year because...boys are mentally tougher?This is insane. We really are heading towards the idea that we don't need separate sports categories because women just need to up their mental "toughness". Again....why are there no calls for disabled people to toughen up and compete against non-disabled athletes?

DianasLasso · 01/09/2020 19:41

From the Guardian article: "The letter, which has been co-signed by 84 leading academics from a range of fields including sport, public health and sociology"

I want to know the actual fields of expertise of these people - how many of them are actually sports scientists/medics with a specialist training in the physiology of sports, as opposed to sociologists.

I know people in public health, for instance, who are shit hot on epidemiology but know sweet FA about CAIS/PAIS, impact of testosterone on VOMax, etc.

Kit19 · 01/09/2020 19:45

World rugby arent having it though! Pushing back very firmly

TRA are not used to orgs who don’t to quote “fold like a deckchair”

Winesalot · 01/09/2020 19:52

From the Guardian article: "The letter, which has been co-signed by 84 leading academics from a range of fields including sport, public health and sociology"

So.... any of those academics have a peer reviewed study to contradict those presented at the summit? Any of them??!

DancelikeEmmaGoldman · 01/09/2020 20:50

Australian Senator Claire Chandler in Parliament on 31/8.

MillyMollyFarmer · 01/09/2020 20:56

World rugby arent having it though! Pushing back very firmly have they commented somewhere on this article specifically?

Kit19 · 01/09/2020 21:01

Arghh

They issued a robust statement refuting the claims

Winesalot · 01/09/2020 21:05

However, World Rugby has issued a robust defence of the research on which its recommendations are based, as well as its application of that research, which has concluded there is a minimum of 20% to 30% increase in injury risk factors when typical male-bodied and female-bodied players are involved in tackles – even when trans women suppress their testosterone in line with International Olympic Committee rules.

“From the outset, we have sought to balance inclusion, safety and fairness within the context of a physical sport based on strength, power, speed and contact,” World Rugby said in a statement. “However, the scientific medical evidence position regarding the impact of testosterone suppression for trans women athletes is compelling, the injury risk at the elite level is real, and should be tackled.

“While welcoming all contributions, it is simply false to state that the research is not peer-reviewed and insufficient to warrant the approach as evidenced by the numerous published studies, which consider biological advantages of males over females and the slight reduction of advantages when testosterone is suppressed.

“World Rugby has operated a fully inclusive and extensive transgender guideline consultation process with relevant bodies as evidenced by the ground-breaking workshop in London. Every element was considered and input from trans advocacy groups was sought, and valued for all the reasons raised by the academics.”

Nice.

MillyMollyFarmer · 01/09/2020 21:08

Thank you!! That’s great!

Deltoids1 · 01/09/2020 22:26

@FuriousAndFrustrated

Does anyone happen to have a link to the tweet/video which shows a woman getting absolutely flattened by a male rugby player when he just stops her (not a full on tackle) as she runs at him?

I'm sure it was linked on Mumsnet somewhere but I'm buggered if I can find it again! I seem to recall the tone of the original tweet was sickeningly gleeful at how she went down like a sack of spuds.

Thanks :-)

Here you go. It was from Leon Pryce’s Twitter.

twitter.com/leonpryce6/status/1293816696000647168?s=20

DianasLasso · 01/09/2020 23:06

Christ on a bike, Deltoids. That clip is awful.

And the responses - the number of men rubbing their thighs together at the thought of a woman being seriously injured. It's like a one-stop-shop illustration of Greer's comment about "women have no idea how much men hate them." I scrolled down looking for a man to say "hang on a mo, that's not right..." but there weren't any!

boatyardblues · 01/09/2020 23:12

You could see her head snap back, like a whiplash injury. Grim. 🤞

ChakaDakotaRegina · 02/09/2020 01:48

Is there an ‘it will never happen - sports edition thread’ we could add some of these links to?

NotBadConsidering · 02/09/2020 03:25

I’d also like to see this letter, look at the signatories and see their qualifications.

Isn’t it funny, Outsports’ Dawn Ennis was more than happy to publish the letter that Martina Navratilova wrote with all of the signatories of women wanting to protect women’s sport, but there doesn’t seem to be a clamour from anyone to release a letter from people determined to destroy women’s sport.

PearPickingPorky · 02/09/2020 04:04

Sean Ingle really is very good.

That quote from Naima Reddick:

" Trans women have no inherent advantage. I’ve learned what makes someone an elite athlete isn’t size, speed, strength - it’s mental toughness, agility, resilience

Was a fantastic inclusion. He's chosen his quotes very well.

Winesalot · 02/09/2020 08:11

That quote from Naima Reddick is wishful thinking. And yes, brilliantly highlights the craziness around this discussion from the supporters. I am sure a female sprinter can use her mental toughness to cope with the thousands of males who can beat her in a 100 m sprint race from 15 years old. Cos obviously she isn’t trying hard enough. Confused

Kit19 · 02/09/2020 08:19

my god that clip!!!!

i would lay odds the vast majority of men taking the piss under the video have no idea anyone is seriously proposing post pubescent male bodied people or men as we usually call them should be allowed to play rugby with women