Caitlin Moran's new book - feminism is for women and men.

[irishfeminist]

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/caitlin-morans-more-than-a-woman-from-life-lessons-to-sex-advice-2pmn3d2kf

Bet you can't wait for this.

"But life for men, in the past 120 years, has remained almost exactly the same – save for the fact that men now don’t, generally, wear top hats. Or cummerbunds. Modern men have problems, too – suicide is the largest cause of death for men under 50; divorcing men tend not to get primary custody of their children; and I’ve lost count of the number of men who have said, if a child needed help in a playground, they would have to find a woman to offer aid: “People just presume you’re a paedophile.” There is something impossibly sad about this. Humans are programmed to want to help others. To make half our population feel that they can’t – that they are, just because of who they are, a threat – is a terrible position to put boys and men in.

I gradually realised that if feminism is “the belief in the social, political, economic and personal equality of the sexes”, then that meant it is for women and men. All of us. In 2020, my feminism has become unisex, and the chapters about men are some of the ones I’m most excited about."

Justhadathought said Julie Bindel is a professional feminist, which is true, but she is also someone who knows her stuff. It's fine to be a campaigning journalist, in my view. She co-founded the Centre for Women's Justice with her partner, and she talks to vulnerable women – prisoners, prostitutes, abused girls – about their experiences. If you want to know the reality of life for women today then read Bindel (or indeed a whole bunch of other less famous journalists), don't read Caitlin Moran

Yes, Julie Bindel does knows her stuff, but what she knows tends to be focused on very particular types of experiences. When you inhabit a certain kind of world you tend to see that world reflected everywhere. That's not to criticise Julie Bindel, though, she's a legend.

As for Caitlyn Moran, she is a writer of editorial journalism, designed to entertain; a different proposition altogether. It doesn't take away from her own experiences and conclusions, though. The difference between her and any one of us, is that her musings on life get printed in national newspapers, and now in a book.

The problem is Moran writes books with titles like How To Be A Woman. She is setting herself up very explicitly as an authority on what women should do and as a feminist, and has a lot of followers. That's why it would be better if she at least informed herself about the statistics and realities for women as a class, and thought through the implications of things like residency rulings and trans ideology.

As a lifestyle journalist writing only about what affects her and her own opinions, she can say what she likes - I just think the packaging is mislabelled IYSWIM.

I remember reading How to be a Woman (which a friend gave me) there was something along the lines of, if think your wedding is the best experience of your life, you haven't taken enough drugs in a field at 3am. I thought that crossed a line - it's the kind of witty, silly thing someone might say to their mates to make them laugh, and maybe it's OK in a funny personal column - but I don't think it's OK in a book that is overtly telling lots of your, often very young, women readers how to live their lives. For some women - and men - their wedding is their best day ever but aside from the fact that she's sneering at them, she's advocating something that is a seriously shit and dangerous idea, besides being illegal, for laughs.

It's the clash between "my personal stories and jokes, hey I'm mad me, aren't I funny" and "CM, feminist role model for women" that makes me uncomfortable.

Well, ok.
I was thinking of a few people that I know, but you’re right, plural of anecdote isn’t data. Can’t be easy having a famous mum either.

My issue with CM is that she's part of that wealthy north-London media/celebrity bubble, and as such, is completely out of touch with ordinary people's lives (in spite of waving her pre-internet Wolverhampton youth as a badge of honour.) Having those voices constantly amplified just skews the argument and makes it harder for the real problems to be addressed.

(And the silly comedy 'whacky' faces she pulls. I have an issue with that as well, but admit that's not strictly relevant.)

From what I’ve read there’s a lot of self-depreciation, angst about looks etc in her writing... I can’t stand that, as if I should somehow be worried about ageing etc. So much peer pressure from other women.

I think the silly faces thing is part of the self-deprecation. I think she's said something about doing it so she can't be judged for her face or something and tried to make it sound like a feminist act, but I think it's just a defensive act. Not blaming her for lacking confidence, but I don't see Greer, Bindel, Criado Perez or any other famous feminist of any kind, doing that.

having a mother who is visibly concerned with looks

I think that's a bit much. Everyone is concerned with their looks to some degree. In fact not giving a shit at all is seen as a sign of mental health problems

I agree. There are posters on here who seem to equate any concern about how one looks as some sort of moral failure.

That comment also contradicts the equally hyperbolic comment that "the not eating is pretty much a rite of passage for year 8 girls" (whatever a "year 8 girl is, because strange as it might seem to some posters not everyone was , or has children, in the English school system)

It seems like an extension of her distancing herself from things that are problematic. Women are judged, more than men, on their appearance. Specifically, their attractiveness. She attempts to bypass that by pulling ridiculous faces, as if to say 'See - I'm not trying!! I don't care!!' when the truth is probably that she cares a lot.

I have huge sympathy with that, but given that she styles herself 'a strident feminist' that she should confront the problem rather than sidestep it. There's a hint of 'do it to Julia'. Angela Merkel doesn't get the option of posing for photos with her mouth wide open in cartoon craziness.

In today's piece she also describes her ageing appearance as 'sad woman surveying her war-ravaged village face' which seemed like a really crass 'joke' for a London media luvvie to use to justify getting botox. Does she watch the news?

This insistence that women and girls with big breasts could go about their lives with no bra on and no one would bat an eyelid is rubbish.

As someone with large breasts who did, for many years, go about without a bra -- because bras at the time that I could afford for large breasts were agony. Because going without was liberating as well as more comfortable. Because jokes about bra burning and bras aren't jokes.

Yes, I got hassle if not direct harassment from men, but then as an out lesbian as well, that was to be expected at the time, and still was until fairly recently. Maybe it's just getting older and perhaps slightly more invisible? Haven't been called a fucking dyke for ages..........

Not all of us think bras, heels, make-up, obsessing about your appearance or thinking about botox are normal. The female appearance industry and constraints are still there, just perhaps the restraints aren't as obvious as they were in the old whale bone corset.

I'm not a media luvvie but I identify with a lot of what she says. I feel like she's often wrestling with the same kind of questions that I am - sort of theory vs reality. I know looks aren't important but I don't want to 'let myself go'. I don't believe that men can become women but I have a pre-teen son who is potentially gender confused. It isn't right that women take on most of caring responsibilities but in the real world I wouldn't walk away from making sure a dying parent had what they need even if it is sexist. Does that mean that i'm not a proper feminist either?
WRT the original post I feel like ending the patriarchy would support everyone who isn't a stereotypical alpha male. Maybe I need to stop calling myself a feminist and aim for something else.
(Although I also read JB, JT, JKR - I don't think it has to be one or another).

I was not impressed by her first book either. She wanted it to be the Female Eunuch for the latest generation but really it was just her life and a few reflections on it. It really came across that she has no real interest or experience outside her own exceptionally pleasant life. At the time there were stories about revenge rapes by gangs of young men on the girlfriends of rival gang members. In her city. Not a word about this. .

Would you make a throwaway joke about looking like a 'sad widow surveying her war-ravaged village' in a broadsheet newspaper though MildMannered?

I'm about the same age as CM, and work in an industry where youth and beauty hugely increase opportunity, and I grapple with the issues the raises in the column. I wouldn't lightheartedly liken my personal insecurities about the natural effects of ageing on my face with the trauma of women in conflict zones though. That smacks of a lack of awareness of non-western, non-white women's experiences to me, and media luvvie privilege. Feminism is surely having empathy for women across the globe, and not using their situation as amusing shorthand for looking shit.

I know it was a throwaway remark, but I don't think that makes it ok here. In an off-the-cuff text to a friend, maybe. Not in a book on feminism.

See I think the "bad feminist" or "guilty feminist" trope is part of the problem, and illustrates how society / patriarchy / internalised misogyny manages to do a number on us even we are trying to be feminist.

Why is caring about your clothes and how you look a bad thing, when it's OK for men? Because while there's a pressure on women to look feminine (as there is on men to look masculine), women are portrayed as trivial and vail when they do that, while men aren't. Men don't get stick for shaving or not shaving their facial hair, wearing a nice suit to work, spending money on clothes they like. Men are seen as natural and normal for doing that or even praised if they have fashion sense. And it's not true that men don't care how they look – take a typical man and tell him to wear a frilly shirt, make up and get a perm and he'd be likely to be horrified (of course some men break the mould but not most). This is the same patriarchy as affects how women want to dress, but men aren't blamed for tit.

So when I'm thinking about what I mean by feminism, and what I think are OK and not OK things for me to do according to my own value system, I try to compare men and women and look at what happens in society as a whole, and ask why I want to do something. Doing what I like with my body hair? If it's OK for men, it's OK for me. Changing my name if I got married? No, because I see that as reinforcing an unfair stereotype and giving out a message that don't think I'm as important as a male spouse.

Of course it can be complicated – i'd consider removing all my pubic hair not OK if I was doing it to please or to attract a porn-addled man, but OK if I genuinely liked it myself.

Re fulfilling caring roles, if you are stuck doing more of the caring and can't bring yourself not to, ask why that is. I'm the same - I do 90% of the support and nurture for the DC I share with my ex, and always have. Why? Because I was socialised to feel shame if I don't. Because he was socialised not to feel shame, and so he didn't bother. Because given those circs, now the kids look to me to be there and I don't want to let them down. I can't change all that by just refusing to care, but I can challenge the processes that led to it and try not to repeat them.

Also I think my feminism always changes and grows the more I learn and hear about and the more feminists I listen to and discuss things with. You can't be some kind of "perfect feminist", that's just another way for women to feel bad about themselves.

I’m lost.
She says we need to think as much about men as women, then writes about her daughter with eating disorders and suicidal tendencies and squarely plonks the blame on a society that makes girls afraid and sad.

Would you make a throwaway joke about looking like a 'sad widow surveying her war-ravaged village' in a broadsheet newspaper though MildMannered?

That smacks of a lack of awareness of non-western, non-white women's experiences to me, and media luvvie privilege

It smacks of gross insensitivity generally. There were plenty of white widows surveying war ravaged villages during WWII and the various post WWII conflicts in Eastern Europe.

Ok, I’m coming back to defend my original comment about caring about looks.

I care about my looks. To a proportionate degree, though. I watch my figure. I wear a little bit of makeup, am happy I have naturally good hair. Hell, I’ve paid a stylist to choose outfits for me.

BUT. I would never in a million years call my ageing face, with its softening jowls , thread veins, emerging wrinkles and sprinkles of grey “war-ravaged”. Really? It’s a bit sad, poignant maybe, but honestly, to be that cut up and hyperbolic about something entirely natural is so negative, it’s the opposite of what female empowerment should be. And I cannot help thinking that this kind of excessive focus on looks is damaging. We all want to look nice, well put together, our best. But this putting yourself down as not good enough, not pretty enough, not fun enough...not enough....who decides that? You need to have confidence, too, you need to believe that you are enough. Have standards, fine, but this self flagellation? Caring so much about your looks that you describe your perfectly lovely but slightly worn face as war ravaged, and in need of plastic surgery, is damaged, it is not normal, and I cannot believe that that attitude doesn’t damage the young girls girls that you’re a role model for.

Totally agree with you there fascinated

Caring about how you look - pretty normal

Slagging off how you look, obsessing about it or making a massive deal of it - not great to model that for young women, whether your own DDs or young fans.

It's a matter of degree to an extent, but maybe one way to look at it is whether it's a positive or negative thing. If you just love clothes and make-up and enjoy them, I don't see a problem but if it's about bemoaning your lack of perfection and beating yourself up, that's more of a dodgy message.

@HelloMissus

I’m lost. She says we need to think as much about men as women, then writes about her daughter with eating disorders and suicidal tendencies and squarely plonks the blame on a society that makes girls afraid and sad.

Agree. She's trying to provide something for everyone, increasingly so as time goes on. It may help sell books/increase her popularity, but it diminishes any claims to being a feminist. It also means that she fails to drill down into the important stuff. So close on so many points, but still so far.

@fascinated

Ok, I’m coming back to defend my original comment about caring about looks.

I care about my looks. To a proportionate degree, though. I watch my figure. I wear a little bit of makeup, am happy I have naturally good hair. Hell, I’ve paid a stylist to choose outfits for me.

BUT. I would never in a million years call my ageing face, with its softening jowls , thread veins, emerging wrinkles and sprinkles of grey “war-ravaged”. Really? It’s a bit sad, poignant maybe, but honestly, to be that cut up and hyperbolic about something entirely natural is so negative, it’s the opposite of what female empowerment should be. And I cannot help thinking that this kind of excessive focus on looks is damaging. We all want to look nice, well put together, our best. But this putting yourself down as not good enough, not pretty enough, not fun enough...not enough....who decides that? You need to have confidence, too, you need to believe that you are enough. Have standards, fine, but this self flagellation? Caring so much about your looks that you describe your perfectly lovely but slightly worn face as war ravaged, and in need of plastic surgery, is damaged, it is not normal, and I cannot believe that that attitude doesn’t damage the young girls girls that you’re a role model for.

The "war widow" remark was crass hyperbole. It was insensitive and not even accurate as a metaphor as the widow can be any age. But it was obviously hyperbole used for comic effect- albeit it failed at being funny. I didn't read it as her literally thinking that (posters on FWR do seem to have a problem with hyperbole- everything is always taken literally)

My objection to Caitlin Moran is she's annoying and not as funny as she thinks she is.

Yeah, I take your point, but this kind of „humour“ is part of the drip, drip, drip undermining of women’s self esteem and self confidence. I just don’t see the need for it.

I thought the extract about her daughter's eating disorder and suicide attempts was very honest, moving and well-written.
But... it also felt like such an invasion of her daughter's privacy. A famous parent using their vulnerable, psychologically-unwell teenager's crisis as copy, just seems misguided and unwise.
I'm sure it will be defended or justified as raising awareness, and/or that she sought her daughter's permission, but any mental health professional would find this so worrying. I really can't see how this is in her daughter's best interests.

I agree. Bad enough having a famous mum, but then one who uses your struggles in her books! I don’t know.... seems very wrong.

Agree, makes her no better than the mummy bloggers pimping their kid's lives out.

Oh well, at least Caitlin and husband are using their extensive meeja connections to launch their 16yo’s music career. Except she’s being marketed as a unknown ingenue and not “daughter of Caitlin Moran and Pete Paphides”.

Anyone who argues feminism is about men has lost sight of the point and actual meaning of feminism. Arguing for equality is fine and a legitimate position. Why, then, dress dress it up in a label which doesn't fit it?

As for toxic masculinity and suicide being the main killer of UK males under 45, these are serious issues which rightly should be of concern to men and women alike. They urgently need addressing. But not within the parameters of feminism, which relates to a different demographic and might not even be in the interests of those primarily affected (men). If it's a case of redressing a social ill or the neglect of funding and resources for supporting those in distress, then why not do so under the banner of mental health (which God knows, needs all the support it can get)?

'Feminism' would be pretty much meaningless in this context, unless, yet again, it's assumed that everyone else's problems are laid at the door of women alone to resolve. It's internalized misogyny driving that sort of assumption, certainly not 'feminism'.