Caitlin Moran's new book - feminism is for women and men.

[irishfeminist]

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/caitlin-morans-more-than-a-woman-from-life-lessons-to-sex-advice-2pmn3d2kf

Bet you can't wait for this.

"But life for men, in the past 120 years, has remained almost exactly the same – save for the fact that men now don’t, generally, wear top hats. Or cummerbunds. Modern men have problems, too – suicide is the largest cause of death for men under 50; divorcing men tend not to get primary custody of their children; and I’ve lost count of the number of men who have said, if a child needed help in a playground, they would have to find a woman to offer aid: “People just presume you’re a paedophile.” There is something impossibly sad about this. Humans are programmed to want to help others. To make half our population feel that they can’t – that they are, just because of who they are, a threat – is a terrible position to put boys and men in.

I gradually realised that if feminism is “the belief in the social, political, economic and personal equality of the sexes”, then that meant it is for women and men. All of us. In 2020, my feminism has become unisex, and the chapters about men are some of the ones I’m most excited about."

@Humbersider

I especially love the implication that women should stop worrying about paedophiles because it makes men feel bad

To be fair, I don't think that was what she was implying, or at least not how I read it. More a criticism of toxic masculinity where it's seen as 'wrong' for a man to be seen as nurturing.

We can be compassionate towards men’s problems, be supportive and be allies but if we accept it as feminism then before long feminism will be about men’s issues and women’s issues will be on the back burner again

I completely agree. Of course I worry about suicide rates among young men. Two young guys I know have committed suicide since the start of lockdown, it's awful. But it makes no sense to call this "feminism". Turning feminism into an "all lives matter" campaign will render it completely meaningless. It serves no one.

@Deliriumoftheendless

Ok. She can have fem-men-ism and there can be feminism for those who wish to focus on women and girls.

I don’t have an issue accepting that men often have a bad time in society and I’d support a campaign to help anyone who may be suicidal but I think blanket statements about custody ignore real and sensible reasons for women getting custody rather than men and that is simply an issue that men need to work on more. I don’t know how women are supposed to stop men feeling like they can help a child without being judged as a predator- this is definitely one for the guys to sort out.

And I’d like to see a few more top hats on dudes. My feminism can include that.

Yes, toxic masculinity is caused by men and it's us men that need to deal with it.

Turning feminism into an "all lives matter" campaign will render it completely meaningless. It serves no one

Could not agree more!

I think there is an argument for countering the sexism that affects men. Boys being brought up in a sexist way is one of the biggest problems for women, and it also leads to problems for many men.

But banging on about the poor men isn’t helpful in a book supposedly about women. She could write a book about men, or about sex equality, to cover that.

Regarding men helping children, it’s tragic that some men are reluctant to do this, but I still know many men who would help. If a child is lost/in danger and your first thought is being accused of being a paedophile, and that stops you from acting, then you are not a responsible adult IMO. Any good man should help the child and worry about any such accusations later. It should be pretty straightforward to determine if that’s baseless.

I thought there were some statistics that showed that when men applied for ‘custody’ of their children in the courts they were in fact more likely to ‘win’ than women and infact the reason most children primarily live with their mothers is that men don’t want ‘custody’ and rarely dispute primary residence.
It may have been US based research though so don’t know if it applies in the U.K.

But feminism will make things better for everyone. Patriarchal culture is also dreadful for men and makes many people very ill. Toxic masculinity affects everyone.

IME the kind of men who go for or threaten to go for full custody do so to punish their ex partners not for the benefit of their kids, except for in circumstances where the mother is obviously unable to be the primary carer, eg. Due to drug addiction or severe mental health problems. 50:50 or near enough 50:50 is much more commonplace than it used to be, though

Yes the men’s lives haven’t changed for 120 years is utter shite and an example of Moran’s tendency to just say whatever soundbite pops into her head without stopping to see if it makes sense. Not gay men for a start. Not men who, through challenges to sexism, have been able to expand what they are able to do with society’s approval - be a sahd, nurse, midwife or Nanny. Before the advent of transgender woo, we were on a path to greater freedom of expression for men through what they could wear, in the same way women have gained the choice to wear what they like/traditionally men’s clothes. Men have become much more involved in childcare and housework, on average, over that 120 years and that’s important for both men and women.

I wonder if she'll address TRA ideology, the greatest threat to women's rights in a century? I can imagine how she'll dismiss it if she's worried about the poor men in general.

FTR, I'm not unaware of or indifferent to the challenges boys and men face, and I have good men in my life. I do think about the pressures of masculinity and what the disappearance of manufacturing in the West has done to them as a workforce. It's not feminism though.

Turning feminism into an "all lives matter" campaign will render it completely meaningless. It serves no one

Exactly this. CM seems to be going for the classic derail of “what about men?” because she knows she’ll get stick for centring women.

Anyway, I’m not surprised. I read How To Be A Woman back when it first came out, and thought it was bollocks. I didn’t know about radical feminism then but, with hindsight, that was the kind of feminism I was looking for in that book. Not a semi-autobiographical, semi-fictional book full of hilarious anecdotes about CM and her sister.

@twoHopes

But life for men, in the past 120 years, has remained almost exactly the same – save for the fact that men now don’t, generally, wear top hats

I don't even know where to start with this crock of nonsense.

I know she started writing professionally at 16, but does she still have to write like one?

I know she started writing professionally at 16, but does she still have to write like one?

Whoa, DID she? I don’t think she’s ever mentioned that before

But feminism will make things better for everyone. Patriarchal culture is also dreadful for men and makes many people very ill. Toxic masculinity affects everyone.

This. Feminism is for women and girls only, but a direct consequence will improve life circumstances for men and boys too.

This is not the same as saying feminism is for everyone. Many of those who laud their feminist credentials by including men are an embarrassment.

Does no one learn history any more?

This is the problem. I quite enjoyed the first book she wrote (can't remember what it was called) but it was pretty clueless about history. There's a bit where she said women achieved almost nothing for virtually all of human history, which simply isn't true. She needs to do some research. It isn't hard.

No fond of her writing. She doesn't seem to know where she stands, all a bit flim flam for me.

Superficial as a rule, but I only occasionally read her articles in the Times, don't like her enough to read regularly or anything longer. Can always find lots to criticise

@Haworthia

I know she started writing professionally at 16, but does she still have to write like one?

Whoa, DID she? I don’t think she’s ever mentioned that before

I think there is an argument for countering the sexism that affects men. Boys being brought up in a sexist way is one of the biggest problems for women, and it also leads to problems for many men.

Couldn't agree more.

I also read those paragraphs with a raised eyebrow yesterday but am interested to see how this plays out. If it's in the context of the above comment from a PP, I'd be interested. But if it's all "What about the men" then I will be disappointed as for all her relatively lite feminism, CM has never been one of those in my opinion.

But this narrative of "men are being penalised" thing is really insidious. DS is 9. Independent and capable but while in London last week, I was uncomfortable with him going into the huge public toilet at a major train station. I explained to him that it wasn't that I didn't trust him but that there are men who come to places like this who don't have good intentions and might want to watch him, touch him, or expose themselves to him. He said, "Why do you always think the men are the baddies. Why is it fine for women but not men?". Luckily, that was relatively easily explained by me saying it is really sad and it's something the whole world needs to work on but we know for a fact that it just happens more often with men than women and there are lots of reasons for that we need to address but right now, for him, it means I don't want him alone in a very public, very large male bathroom. But at 9, I'm having to watch out because otherwise it will be so easy for hi to slip into this idea that men are being discriminated against.

Small point but why 120 years?

Anyone any idea?

When was male franchise increased massively?

Oh, Caitlin.

I remember reading How To Be A Woman when it first came out and loving it. We were both young, me & Cait, and I found her voice really refreshing and her account of young womanhood so relatable,

But we aren’t you g any more, Caitlin. I’m just so bloody disappointed she hasn’t matured as a feminist and got a bit more steel about her. Feminism should and in fact MUST centre women. Her intentions may well be good, but taking this direction is sorely misjudged. At this stage of her life and career, to be falling back on the ‘let’s include the men, we can’t do this without them’ trope...it’s just so disheartening.

I love my husband. I’ve got a son. Not all men are bastards etc etc. But I’ll be dammed if my feminism is going to centre around ‘being kind‘ and opening up the conversation to make men feel more included. Enough of that nonsense.

I assume it's just a nice round number 2020-120=1900.

Small point but why 120 years?

The world was created in the year 1900?

@Haworthia

I know she started writing professionally at 16, but does she still have to write like one?

Whoa, DID she? I don’t think she’s ever mentioned that before

Exactly. We get repeatedly clouted over the head with it - along with her incorrect usage of capital letters.

Stop shouting Caitlyn!

@ThinEndoftheWedge

Small point but why 120 years?

The world was created in the year 1900?

D'oh! How did I miss that!