Caitlin Moran's new book - feminism is for women and men.

[irishfeminist]

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/caitlin-morans-more-than-a-woman-from-life-lessons-to-sex-advice-2pmn3d2kf

Bet you can't wait for this.

"But life for men, in the past 120 years, has remained almost exactly the same – save for the fact that men now don’t, generally, wear top hats. Or cummerbunds. Modern men have problems, too – suicide is the largest cause of death for men under 50; divorcing men tend not to get primary custody of their children; and I’ve lost count of the number of men who have said, if a child needed help in a playground, they would have to find a woman to offer aid: “People just presume you’re a paedophile.” There is something impossibly sad about this. Humans are programmed to want to help others. To make half our population feel that they can’t – that they are, just because of who they are, a threat – is a terrible position to put boys and men in.

I gradually realised that if feminism is “the belief in the social, political, economic and personal equality of the sexes”, then that meant it is for women and men. All of us. In 2020, my feminism has become unisex, and the chapters about men are some of the ones I’m most excited about."

Oh, apologies. I should have paragraphed things better.

But I agreed with all of your post, then I started referencing other posters.

She's a great writer but if she can't address the trans issue she needs to relinquish her feminist badge. Even if she talked bolleaux it would be something. Ignoring it is like Boris ignoring covid, it's just farcical.

As is the chummy lady journo gang she's in that appears to be unconcerned about men accessing abuse images of babies.

What percentage of men ever owned a top hat and a cummerbund????

If your feminism doesn't centre women, you need to find a different word for it and stop muddying the water, I think.

I grew up with Germaine Greer and my daughter's with CM, and sadly, it shows. Feminism diluted is feminism stalled. Might as well just say, "Men - be nicer!"

@NearlyGranny

If your feminism doesn't centre women, you need to find a different word for it and stop muddying the water, I think.

I grew up with Germaine Greer and my daughter's with CM, and sadly, it shows. Feminism diluted is feminism stalled. Might as well just say, "Men - be nicer!"

I suppose the ineffectiveness of "men - be nicer" is why they're now often at "women, be nicer"

I expect her stance (or lack of one) on the trans argument is explained by the reference in the Standard article to her two daughters whose feminism is, apparently "intersectional".

I understand from experience how difficult it is to express GC opinions to woke young relatives, but the difference is that I'm not pretending to be an expert in Womens' Rights

Modern men have problems, too – suicide is the largest cause of death for men under 50; divorcing men tend not to get primary custody of their children; and I’ve lost count of the number of men who have said, if a child needed help in a playground, they would have to find a woman to offer aid: “People just presume you’re a paedophile.”

These are directly from the MRA lists. Odd that she omitted the MRA talking point that women rape and abuse just as much as men do...

On the suicides: Yes, men are more likely to kill themselves than women in all countries that I know of except for China, and as far as I can tell this problem is not a recent one.

At the same time, at least in the US women make more suicide attempts than men. That men complete more suicides is at least partly because men are more likely to use firearms and other forms of suicide where intervention is impossible while women are more likely to take drugs and that leaves some time for intervention.

What is also interesting is that in the US white rates of suicide are far higher than those for any other demographic group with the exception of Native Americans. This may have something to do with gun ownership rates differing by race but that is unlikely to be the whole explanation for the differences.

Male rates are higher than female rates in all the subgroups, but the rates for black, non-Hispanic men, say, are roughly the same as the rates for white women. My point is that the agony which causes suicides may not be completely driven by societal mistreatment because if it was then the lowest ranking men should have the highest rates.

I haven't seen research on child custody in the UK and even the US studies I have found are about some states only. My impression is that divorcing couples mostly agree that the mother should have physical custody or that custody is shared. In the cases where the parents disagree and the case goes to court one older study found that fathers win in more than half the contested cases.

But those cases may well be different from the average cases.

So yes, one can argue that it is the traditional sex roles which hurt fathers in divorce and in that sense feminism would make things better if it was of the type I used to think it is, i.e., about minimising the effect of retrogressive sex roles.

@NearlyGranny

If your feminism doesn't centre women, you need to find a different word for it and stop muddying the water, I think.

I grew up with Germaine Greer and my daughter's with CM, and sadly, it shows. Feminism diluted is feminism stalled. Might as well just say, "Men - be nicer!"

All is not lost though. I'm a millennial who read Moran's book and could see problematic things in it. She embraces bras, which is fine, but I don't remember her acknowledging that unless you have large breasts, the only reason why we wear them is because people find the mere suggestion of unshackled boobs very offensive and distracting. God forbid if your unshackled boobs look middle aged and not like a 20 year old's.

She's charming, entertaining and wants to be liked but stops short at rattling the cage. In a way, her method is more effective at getting the message across I think, but she also risks being seen as fluff. I quite like Bindel, who is often sharper but equally funny without trying.

Things not changed much for men in the last 120 years? Assuming we're talking UK,

Off the top of my head

Being a gay man is no longer criminal and marriage is now legal
The invention of the contraceptive pill had a big impact for men (as well as women)

They're pretty big deals aren't they? I'm sure there's more.

It's a really weird statement.

'She embraces bras, which is fine, but I don't remember her acknowledging that unless you have large breasts, the only reason why we wear them is because people find the mere suggestion of unshackled boobs very offensive and distracting'

Agree. Bras exist for sexist and ageist reasons. It's the main part of our bodies which shows us as 'non men' and breasts are, frankly, fetishised in our culture.

Big breasts are seen as somehow lewd just by existing.
They are simultaneously the focus of both lust and comedy/ almost revulsion by plenty of men. They're obscene even when covered.
The idea of going without a bra as a larger chested woman is not a goer.
Older women's breasts- and by older I mean often not actually that old- are seen as undesirable/ awful. Bras need to hoik them to under our chins to make them passable.

It's all shit tbh.

These are directly from the MRA lists. Odd that she omitted the MRA talking point that women rape and abuse just as much as men do...

Agree Nepeta I found that uncomfortable, it reads like the numerous tweets she must have received in response to her writing over the years

Sounds like a book written for pickmes by a pickme. Old school radical feminism is the only way forward and I'm even finding this board is going too easy on men recently. Maybe it's female socialisation or a coping mechanism. The relationship board is way worse though. All hope isn't lost for my generation though. I'm a 20 something RadFem and I think that's becoming more and more common considering the internet has showed us how men are.

Did anyone consider that maybe she simply wants to sell more books and this is a popular angle at the moment?

@NiceGerbil

Did anyone consider that maybe she simply wants to sell more books and this is a popular angle at the moment?

I think the critiques on this thread are picking up on just that. She can go ahead and sell books, but no one on FWR is obliged to take her arguments seriously.

Well no.

I've not read her books and don't know much about her TBH although have heard her name a lot.

Oh the other thing about this. It's about stories. The stories that people, especially men, tell. And how they don't align to real life at all.

A common story is that men who are single don't get any kind of physical contact with others. No closeness/ comfort/ support. And can't talk about xyz.

This is a story. A well recognised story to the extent it's accepted without question.

The men I know (and this may well not be universal)

• are way more physical with other men at work/ in the pub etc than women are with each other. Half hugs, back slapping, genuine fondness in smiles, football is on and there's a goal it's hugs all round.

For women. We keep our distance. Maybe an air kiss.

• DH definitely talks to his mates about family and problems etc. How's the kids. How's your wife's depression. Are you managing ok.

-loads of men also offload onto women who, frankly, don't really care. But listen because it would be rude not to

The story of men as stoic providers who protect and suffer is mainly just that. A story.

For sure there are problems eg suicide but this is for MEN to sort out. And as far as I can tell, they're just not that interested.

I strongly object to women, feminists having to take on men's problems as well as women's problems in a society that puts men before women.

Most of the problems that men have are caused by other men/ society. And men hold the power in society. As ever though, women are expected to look after them, put them first. The constant bending of feminist aims to focus on men is shit. Women have enough problems.

I also dispute the stories told. No dad in the park is going to ignore a toddler crying. And people with no kids, male or female, can be rubbish at knowing what to do with a kid.

It's all stories. Not real life.

Oh and the men in my current and last job worked flexibly and went to school plays etc. It was fine. I imagine the employers who are inflexible, are inflexible with the women too.

Sorry. Long.

TLDR. The stories about men are like this and women are like that don't hold up to scrutiny.

NiceGerbil

Good points. I agree with all of them except this one.

For sure there are problems eg suicide but this is for MEN to sort out. And as far as I can tell, they're just not that interested

Male suicide is not just something for men to sort out. Nor is it a new phenomenon (and I have no idea what point nepeta is making in her post).

I grew up in a farming community and my work involves that community - one of the high risk groups possibly because of legal access to guns.

I'm 61. I don't know any woman who has committed suicide. On the other hand before I was 18 I knew of 2 farmers in my community who shot themselves, a boy in class who hanged himself the summer before he was due to go to university, in a horrible coincidence, a friend of my son's did the same at the same age, a friend's step-son at university who hanged himself, the farmer father of a work colleague who shot himself and another farmer, not known to me personally, but who made the news for shooting himself after losing a court case.

the only reason why we wear them is because people find the mere suggestion of unshackled boobs very offensive and distracting

That is not the only reason.

Male suicide is not just something for men to sort out. Nor is it a new phenomenon (and I have no idea what point nepeta is making in her post).

The point I was making was really more an answer to the MRAs who argue that higher rates of male suicide are a consequence of the male roles in the society.

Female suicide attempt rates are higher, at least in some countries, and the cultural/ethnic/racial differences suggest that the reasons are more complicated than just the stress of male sex roles which would be roughly the same in most cultures. And access to guns makes a difference, too, as your examples highlight.

I have known two women who committed suicide and one man.

I just read this excerpt about her daughter's eating disorder, after Glosswitch shared it, and it's devastating & searingly honest...

'What I’ve learnt about motherhood'

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/8714697a-e149-11ea-9a3a-c45f6db42dc9

Sorry. Long.

It was a very interesting post nicegerbil made me think! Not long at all.

(You described the men I used to know and work with very well.)

I imagine the employers who are inflexible, are inflexible with the women too.

True in my experience

I just read that too CivilCervix, it moved me to tears.

What Caitlyn is describing is a more a form of humanism than feminism, and with that I have sympathy. When you have identified as a feminist for most of your adult life it can be difficult to let go of the title when you start to see or feel differently about things.

A side note, you don't have to identify as a feminist in order to feel strongly about the trans issue, and about the need to protect single sex spaces, services and sports.