Stats on attack on women by men self identifying as women?

[Bb2019]

Hello everyone,

I've been lurking on this board and generally following the mainstream uk press about trans issues including the JK Rowling debate etc.

I've been shocked with the likes of Mermaids and the Tavistock centre prescribing under 18s life changing treatments.

I'm still trying to understand the implications and form an informed opinion on the use of women only places by trans women. I understand it would make many women uncomfortable if it were obvious.

Do we have any statistics or research done on how often women or girls have been attacked in their own spaces by men passing as trans women and or by trans women? I know it happens anecdotally but how much more likely is it to happen? Is it isolated incidents or is the risk much heightened? Perhaps it's not possible to do this type of research though due to a paucity of data?

Thanks!

Those statistics are not kept. Crimes are recorded by the self identified gender of the assailant or victim, not by sex.

Everything I have read states that patterns of offending remain unchanged when a person changes their gender identity.

So TW commit crime at the same rate as men.
Sexual assaults by men on women in toilets and changibg rooms increase by about 60% when these places are designated mixed or unisex.

There is a very good video called something like " these are not our crimes".
Someone more knowledgeable than me could probably link it.

There are lists of such crimes kept by volunteers, but it is no longer possible to keep accurate statistics.
transcrimeuk.com/

Mixed sex changing rooms are associated with more than an 800% increase in sexual attacks on women, and also increase the risk of voyerism and hidden cameras.

The vast majority of reported sexual assaults at public swimming pools in the UK take place in unisex changing rooms.
Just under 90 per cent of complaints regarding changing room sexual assaults, voyeurism and harassment are about incidents in unisex facilities.

www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/unisex-changing-rooms-put-women-in-danger-8lwbp8kgk

www.independent.co.uk/life-style/women/sexual-assault-unisex-changing-rooms-sunday-times-women-risk-a8519086.html

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7638537/Cameras-hidden-primary-schools-toilets-FIVE-years.html

As noted above, though, these statistics are not collected as police record sex according to how it's self-reported. So - nobody knows.

You would be more productive investigating the number of sexual assaults by women on women. Because that is how your question would be recorded.

Thanks everyone that's very eye opening. So we would be expected to see the number of crimes recorded as assaults committed by women on women in women only spaces to go up especially those of a sexual nature.

It's all a bit scary. Will read /watch the materials carefully linked in this thread.

One thing - apologies, it's unpleasant - in England and Wales I believe rape only applies to penetration with a penis in criminal law.

As we know, though, rape has been described as having been 'decriminalised' in the past 2 years. So I'm not sure how accurate stats will be as a reflection of reality.

Thanks everyone. Thinking about this more:

• Blanket exclusion of men from women's spaces makes sense as it doesn't infringe the rights of most (see below) men while keeping the dangerous ones out.
• It does, however, exclude men who transition, who I understand are disproportionately subjected to assaults and violence at the hands of men generally.

We are now in a situation where trans women are asking for more rights and protection, yet in this case at the expense of women's rights. In essence asking for women to let them into their spaces even if a) they might be statistically more likely to assault women from being XY genetically and b) importantly it removes the automatic exclusion of those men who will assault women.

This is obviously enraging to women who fought extremely hard (and continue to do so) for the safety and dignity of women.

Google "man bathroom camera". To get a variety of results put in the name of random cities in the UK and states in the US.

Now sit back and imagine all each of those men had to do was chuck on a dress and say he feels like a woman.

Look for ‘woman assaulted woman’ and follow up by checking local media reports. Photographs often make it clear who's a woman.

Hi BB, I know it’s completely not what you asked for, but I don’t think it’s been mentioned enough here.

On 21 December 2019, a man was sexually assaulted in the street in Bishop’s Stortford. The victim reported it, gave a clear description, and the police were eventually able to find a suspect.
However their efforts were delayed and protection for the public delayed by the fact that the police don’t release an accurate description of the suspect, which included “man dressed as a woman”. (I don’t think the suspect was trans by the way)

The police actually gave a press conference at which they warned the press against reporting the case accurately,

grahamlinehan.substack.com/p/a-week-in-the-war-on-women-monday-june-22nd-sunday-28th-june

So not only are there no longer and accurate statistics, in individual cases of predators on the loose, victims waiting for justice before they move on with their life, the public are not being given accurate information.

There's also this, OP:
fairplayforwomen.com/transgender-prisoners/

Of the prisoners in the male estate self-identifying as women, half of them are sex offenders or cat A prisoners (the highest risk category).

This means that prisoners in the male estate identifying as trans are actually more likely to be sex offenders than prisoners within the general male prison population.

Two possible interpretations. Either they really are trans, in which case, it emphasises the findings of an earlier study (Finland? Sweden? I forget which) which suggested that transwomen retain male patterns of offending behaviour. Or they're lying about being trans in order to get into women's prisons to get at a quite literally captive pool of potential victims.

Neither of these interpretations suggests that self-ID is a good idea within the prison system. (In fact I would argue that it shows that moving trans-identifying prisoners from the male estate into the women's estate is an extremely bad idea across the board - we just shouldn't do it. Third spaces needed, again).

These articles are scary, fear inducing and confirm what we already know: men disproportionately commit certain types of crimes (rape, voyeurism etc.). They don't give statistics on what happens in gender neutral spaces or women's spaces in countries where men are able to self identify as women.

Does anybody have links to the papers/studies that show:

• crimes in unisex/gender neutral toilets by men on women are higher than in women only spaces.
• trans women commit crimes against women at the same rate as men.

I'd love to see the methodology and how statistically significant.

If the evidence of greater harm is inconclusive for whatever reason, what we are doing is wanting to exclude trans women as a precautionary measure because a) we think it will expose women to greater harm by providing greater access to women for those men who hurt women b) trans women harm women at the same rate as the general male population.

This is fine with me and I support this approach.

I've discussed this with a few family members and peers that the Daily Mail would pejoratively describe as "woke lefty snowflakes" and they disagreed with me on the above because:

• Trans women are very marginalised and a very small minority, so it will largely be a non issue as they will rarely encounter them in their space, and if they did, they would be ok sharing their space with them.
• They believe the general male population will carry on harming women at the same rate whether or not they can self identify as a woman to access women only spaces. In their mind it's not going to make it any worse.
• They are skeptical of the notion that trans women commit crimes against women at the same rate as the general male population and would want to see convincing research.

There clearly seems to be a bit of a generational divide here (I'm a millennial going against the grain among many of my peers with my support for a precautionary approach). Without the hard evidence (hence why I'm trying to get my hands on what research there is), it's going to be tricky for the debate to move forward, unless there is a majority for or against among women (is there a consensus? I didn't think there was).

@DianasLasso @OneEpisode interesting- that's the sort of evidence I'm looking for. Would you have more on this?

Worth noting (because FPW sometimes gets dismissed) that the BBC fact-checked this, and found (much to their evident disappointment, because the BBC is Woke Central) that not only was it true, but also FPW (in order not to open themselves to accusations of bias and sensationalism) had if anything been overly cautious in analysing the data and the actual situation might be even worse.

I am only here a short time and trying to formulate my own responses to these very arguments from family members so I'll have a go at 2 of yours.....

they will rarely encounter them in their space, and if they did, they would be ok sharing their space with them.

Well that's great for them but do they not accept that not every woman and girl will consent to this, and for certain vulnerable women (eg in shelters) or for religious reasons this could stop some taking part in certain activities.

They believe the general male population will carry on harming women at the same rate whether or not they can self identify as a woman to access women only spaces. In their mind it's not going to make it any worse.

It's providing easier access though and naive to think some predetory men won't abuse this process to get access they wouldn't ordinarily have. Abusive men have always used avenues available to them (priests, swim coach etc) to get access to victims in their spaces which they can legitimately be in. Its basic safeguarding. Girls should know they can be safe and rely on single sex spaces when they go swimming/hostel/changing rooms etc

I think brains engage better on this topic if you take a different tack.

Let's make everything unisex. Zero sex segregation on anything. Toilets, prisons, sports, all unisex. Trans problem solved! Why not? It makes people think more.

That's a good point Tork. Focuses the mind on the real issue.

The other thing to drop into the conversation is whether they know that upwards of 80% of transwomen still have male genitalia. (Sometimes for very good reason - if you can live without extreme surgery and handle your dysphoria in a way that stops short of that level of surgical intervention, on the whole I think that's a good thing - but it does put a whole different complexion on the issue of women's spaces.) And remind them that it's not just toilets. (This next point will be very variable depending where in the country you live). Where I live, I can think of at least 3 pools I use relatively regularly which don't have cubicles in the (single sex) changing rooms. I personally don't want to be confronted with a naked penis while I myself am naked and vulnerable (other than consensual sexual encounters with a man I know and have chosen to get naked with). I don't care how the penis owner identifies.

The other issue is women's sports. This should give them a bit of food for thought.
boysvswomen.com/#/
Because basically if you insist on letting transwomen into women's sports under the guise of inclusion, you are destroying women's sport. There is no other spin that you can put on this. You can't have fair competition. In the case of contact sports like rugby, martial arts, etc., you can't have safe competition either.

Yes, Tork, I've tried that on facebook. Just flat out said - okay, so, why don't we scrap all sex segregation. Sport, changing rooms, etc.

The bloke I was speaking to said, okay, yes, fine, let's do that. But I think:

1. He pretty much had no choice but to say that was fine, as he'd been TWAWing loudly. And removal of all sex segregation is the only possible logical endpoint of TWAW.

1. I don't think he really was allowing himself to think about the consequences. I didn't make any suggestions, I want him to think about it and reach his own conclusions.

1. Even if he does rest with the screaming cognitive dissonance, most women who read that and think about it for about 10 seconds will very swiftly come to a GC conclusion.

I wonder if it's time for a really bold 'scrap all sex segregation' campaign. Hmm.

Sorry Bb I have been busy IRL.

The best I can find is:

December announcement, serious sexual assault, no description of suspect.
www.herts.police.uk/news-and-appeals/appeal-for-information-following-sexual-assault-in-bishops-stortford-1221

Man is charged 27th May 2020, “assault by penetration, sexual assault and possession of a class A drug.”
www.herts.police.uk/news-and-appeals/man-charged-with-sexual-assault-in-bishops-stortford-0163

June, still need more evidence, suspect more crimes have happened:
“We are now in a position to confirm that our enquiries have led us to believe the alleged suspect was a male who was posing as a female at the time of the incident.
“We are still very much appealing for witnesses or anyone with information to please come forward. Have you previously been approached in similar circumstances or do you know someone who has? Have you previously witnessed any activity in the area which you thought seemed a little suspicious? If so, we’d like to hear from you."
www.herts.police.uk/news-and-appeals/further-appeal-for-information-following-sexual-assault-in-bishops-stortford-0197n

The above are all direct police announcements. Very similar announcements on Facebook at the same times.

Then 21st June, reporting in various press including www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8443647/Police-issue-appeal-sex-attacker-without-mentioning-suspect-man-wearing-womans-clothes.html
This has quotes:
“In a recent briefing for local newspapers, a senior officer confirmed that they were aware that the alleged attacker was a man wearing women’s clothing but told reporters they should report the information ‘sensitively… in terms of the LGBT+ community’.
Asking for the journalists’ help in persuading other possible victims to come forward, Detective Inspector Justine Jenkins of the regional major crime unit explained: ‘We need people to feel comfortable in reporting these matters to police so it is absolutely vital that any coverage of the case in the media is handled supportively and sensitively, both in terms of the male victim and of the LGBT+ community.

‘We do not want to be in a situation where members of the gay or trans communities in particular are being targeted by hurtful comments or actions as a result of this information being released. ”

But other victims could have suffered serious sexual assaults (penetration) whilst they weren’t releasing a description!

This is the Swedish study that showed male people who transitioned retained the same rate of criminal convictions as the general male population:

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3043071/

I replied to a similar thread this morning. It has a few more replies:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3994281-Help-looking-for-reliable-stats-on-violence-against-trans-people