Just for a second I really hated my husband.

[Mammatino]

I bloody did. We were having a drink yesterday afternoon in the garden talking about the things we missed about living in London. One of the things he said he missed was just sitting in a pavement bar on his own with a pint and a paper listening to the snippets of life And the diversity happening around him...and I hated him. (Well probably not hate just searing jealousy)I’ve never ever felt safe enough to do that, certainly as a young woman, some man would have sat with me to save me from embarrassment Then got angry with me because I didn’t want his company. Or wanted to feel me up for his poxy half of lager. Before my thirtieth birthday I had a bucket list and on it was to dine alone. I tried it once, it was excruciating. I don’t know what I’m trying to say here really but it makes me so sad for young girls and women that they can’t just watch life going by on their own. I’d love to have a lovely cafe bar just for women and girls to come and do just that. What Small thing do you wish you could have done if you were a man? Do you think it will ever change? Or has it changed and I've just missed the boat.

I've done this many a time (in quieter pubs, in busy city centres and in restaurants)..first couple of times felt a bit awkward maybe in the sense of feeling paranoid people would think i was a loser for being alone, but other than that I've never experienced any issues doing it.
I would say though it's become easier to do as I've got older, but i think that's more to do with me giving less of a toss what people think than anything societal.

I’ve never been approached in a cafe or restaurant, or beer garden scenario... resting bitch face? Plenty of catcalling from afar and passing harassment on trains etc though. Often told I am “aloof”...

Now I feel quite lucky. I have dined alone, sat in a beer garden sipping a pint on my own, cinema trips on my own. It wouldn't have occurred to me not to do so. All the sexual violence and abuse I've experienced has either been at the hands of someone I knew very well, or when I was out in a group.

However, I would bloody love to be able to strike up a conversation with a man, without it always being assumed that you're looking for something else. Or being able to share a round with someone you've just met, without it being assumed it's leading somewhere. If you're happy to chat to a man you've just met, obviously you want sex with him

It sounds like you've had some unpleasant encounters. But I'm surprised that you wouldn't feel safe having a quiet drink at a pavement cafe or bar? I completely understand the frustration at dealing with unwanted attention, but I found it irritating in the same way that I found wasps buzzing around my food irritating. I'm not for a minute saying that low level harassment is acceptable - it isn't - but I wouldn't have thought it wouldn't be an issue of safety, though, In the circumstances you describe?

Personally I have never felt more physically at risk as a woman - I think men are actually more likely to be victims of random assault? I recognise that there is a risk to, say, walking alone after dark. But my assessment of the risk placed it lower than other things I do without thinking, like driving.

I totally understand that not everyone feels the same way that I do (perhaps hardly anyone does!)

My mum was always explicit that I should never apologise or feel bad for taking up space or being a woman alone in a public place etc. She modelled that confidence, too.Can you remember being given subtle messages about it not being acceptable, OP? I’m sad you found it excruciating. We pick up lots subconsciously growing up, I think.

Crikey OP I'm sorry you feel like that. I've had lunch or dinner alone dozens of times both at home and away on business trips, and I've had a drink alone in town when waiting for friends but I've never encountered anything like that 😳

The only thing I'm jealous of is that DP can happily walk home from drinks in town late at night on his own and I can't (we have to walk through a park and a secluded area to get home and even though we live in a safe place I wouldn't).

I had a friend who would never wait inside the pub for me, she always waited outside. I found it odd.

I am impressed you hated your DH for only a second.

I have been with mine nearly 21 years and I have hated him for most if those, but also love him too which is why we lasted so long.

I wish I could have the famous/infamous husband vision. You know the one where any mess/dirt/chores evades them completely? Ditto the ability to just go to work and be really competent and well regarded, but come home and be a lobotomised baboon.

I am getting really fed up atm with all this.

never ever felt safe enough to do that, certainly as a young woman, some man would have sat with me to save me from embarrassment

I've done that and continue to do that in most major European cultural cities of importance with no problem.

Oh I love the wasps! As a young woman I did have several terrible experiences of being followed into toilets or home from bars and Being seriously assaulted and I was very frightened by it. Fascinated, your mum sounds wonderful and she’s completely right too. I think I probably was given subtle messages about it being unacceptable from my grandma (she wore gloves and pearls), my mum was a kickass feminist though, always marching and fundraising. I’ve never ever thought of it like that! I wonder why I took my cue from my grandma? Thanks for responding guys, when Covids done I’m off for a gin in a pub on my own, with wasp swatter.

I don’t know what I’m trying to say here really but it makes me so sad for young girls and women that they can’t just watch life going by on their own.

You need to speak for yourself. I've dined alone, sat alone, gone for a drink alone more times than I could possibly remember. I have never had an issue doing so. I've been approached by men trying to flirt many times but just send them on their way. My daughter is 20 and she loves to eat out alone. I fail to see what your issue is. If being alone in a public setting is "excruciating", that's your perception, certainly not that of every woman.

I've often sat in a cafe, dined and gone to the cinema alone without issue. It's odd the first few times, I always keep a book in my bag anyway so might sit reading / watching the world go by but you get used to. Unless you live in a particularly dodgy area you should give it a go. Grab a magazine order a coffee and sit and people watch. I think it's possibly a confidence thing as much as anything else, you soon learn most people (men included) are so wrapped up in their own lives they aren't interested in what anyone else is doing.

I do this all the time. Literally a few times a week. In central London. Never felt unsafe.

I’ve done cinema trips alone Star Wars James Bond multiple times, coffee bars I’m 54 now thank god for the freedom I don’t care now, of course this has ended now.

I have been watching “Murder She Wrote”. Jessica Fletcher meets an interesting, attractive man and invites him to a meal. No one suspects she has any improper intentions. She has earned that freedom having passed her “Last Fuckable Day”. Amy Schumer featuring some great women. On YouTube.

Do you know what I’m so glad reading your responses. I think you’re ace! I’ve stopped hating my husband and being jealous. I think I’ve let a few bad experiences stop me from doing something so mundane and normal.

I don’t know what I’m trying to say here really but it makes me so sad for young girls and women that they can’t just watch life going by on their own.

OP this is definitely not a universal experience. I'm a young woman, have lived in London all my life, and have lunch/dinner/drinks by myself multiple times a week, often outside. I've occasionally been bothered by some pushy bloke, but no more frequently than i am on the tube, or in the supermarket. I have never felt unsafe drinking alone.

I think your past experiences and upbringing are colouring this, I'd maybe see if you could address these things with a therapist, and see if you can get a bit of the joy back.

Before my thirtieth birthday I had a bucket list and on it was to dine alone. I tried it once, it was excruciating

What was "excruciating" about it? I'm on holiday with my husband at the moment. I've added 2 extra nights on at the posh country hotel specifically for me to be on my own. I'm looking forward to it.

Do you do anything on your own? E.g cinemas, concerts

I don’t know what I’m trying to say here really but it makes me so sad for young girls and women that they can’t just watch life going by on their own

But they can. What you are describing isn't the norm.

You feel how you feel, we all have different experiences.

Sorry those things happened to you.

Yesterday my MIL said “who’s that whistling?” (knowing it was me - PA)

I said, “it’s me... were you always told it was not ladylike. My gran used to say that, too.”

She didn’t say any more.

(We get on fine actually!)

Blimey, OP, I'm not surprised your awful experiences have impacted your ability to enjoy what should be a simple thing. I'm really sorry that has happened to you.

It is stories like yours that just make me so angry with the bloody trans ally women. People who do not have the ability to understand that just because they are not threatened by, for example, penises in women's toilets, it doesn't mean that other women are happy with it, and for (depressingly) valid reasons. I am really grateful to MN for helping me to understand this.

I've always done this. The only time I've ever been "chatted up" was when I was days away from giving birth. Which was odd 🙄

I’m really happy reading this. My dining alone experience was excruciating for me (over dramatic sorry), because I hadn’t even ordered before I’d had a drink sent over to me. I said I was fine but thank you very much. The sender came over and called me an ungrateful stuck up bitch, shock horror everyone looked at me and I just felt so judged by a bunch of bloody strangers. I ordered a burger and it was massive so I had to cut it in half with a knife and fork so they started laughing at “lady muck”. I just sort of sidled out. I’m from a pit village in yorkshire, my parents are working class grafters but my grandma was a bit posher I suppose...well she got the silver out for the doctors wife.

PS good luck with your gin and wasp swatter, that sounds like a great plan!